Mary and Joseph

[Benedicta00]

No His presence is in His people. We partake of communion to remember it is because of His death that we can have life.. It is in His death that we have forgiveness.. He is the bread of Life. Every word He spoke out of His mouth or through the Apostles is the bread of life.. He is the manna from Heaven.. The true Manna

I'm sorry IAA but that just doesn't line up with what the Word says.

 

[Benedicta00]

My faith is in Christ alone.. He is my righteousness.. I have none on my own.. He has done it all for me. I need to abide in Him and His words to abide in me...

Great...

but are you infallible? can you interpret the scriptures infallibly?

 

[Benedicta00]

And Protestants completely agree.

We just don't put "Roman" in front of every quote from every Christian author, nor capitolize the word "Catholic" in their quotes so as to imply in modern English grammar that a proper name of a specific particular denomination is being implied.






This is the Protestant position.

As I understand it, the Catholic position is that where the Pope is, there is the Catholic Church.





If Peter could be wrong, if Thomas could be wrong, why couldn't some man who lived in the second century who never met Christ not be wrong? But, again, he never remotely even hinted that the Roman Catholic denomination was the one true denomination.






The early church was catholic - and still is.
What cannot be substantiated is that it was the Roman Catholic denomination.




I agree. It's a primary reason why I left the CC.



Thank you for your excellent contribution to the discussion and for reading my $0.01.


May God richly bless you and yours in Christ our Suffering Servant in this holy season of Lent.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

so when are you converting to Orthodoxy CJ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Great...

but are you infallible? can you interpret the scriptures infallibly?

Can the Roman Catholic Denomination?
Is this limited to the denomination you happen to belong to?
If a teacher (person, congregation, denomination) self claims to be infallible, are they? If so, why? If not, why? Is your particular denomination exempt? If so, why?

Could you please quote for me any Scriptures or ECF from before the year 300 that specifically states that the Roman Catholic Denomination is, per se, infallible in it's own interpretations and that it alone is so? I'm not talking about catholic (universal, general, whole) - a position of Protestants, but of the Catholic denomination specificially. And that such is INFALLIBLE. If even your own denomination's earliest founders never claimed such for the Catholic denomination per se, that might be signficant. If they are only claiming such for Christians (catholic) and not specifically for your particular singular denominations, then it seems to me the Protestant with whom you are having this discussion has the stronger arguement - from your own Church Fathers.



My $0.01


Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Benedicta00]

I am not ignoring this .. I am not infallable but the Holy Spirit is.. He teaches us.. We listen. We go to the word of God with an open heart and Mind and allow the Lord to teach us His word by His spirit..Who is right? Gods word is right.. Show me where some of the dogma's of the Catholic faith are in scripture? How they line up. We can go into this more deeply if you like. I don't know if this is the thread to do so or not. I will not go into the Catholic site.. So you tell me where we can get into this deeper conversation.. In a orderly fashion.. We can compare if you like.. We can reason together. I don't have a problem with this...

If the Holy Spirit teaches us, the who is really following him? You or me?

Don't you see how you can not prove based on the fact you feel convicted, and that you read the bible and that you have the HS, that what you come up with is objective truth?

I have news for you, i have the indwelling of the HS too, every bit as much as you do and it would behoove you to try to say I don't. It would behoove me to say the same about you.

So please tell me, which one of us is correct, you or me?

I can whip out as many verses as you can to support my beliefs.

So how do we settle this? How do we come to know the objective truth?

 

[Benedicta00]

The Holy Spirit is Christ in us bene.. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.. We His people called by His name. Sealed with His Spirit washed in His blood. Speaking His word..

Yes the HS lives in all of us who are re born in Christ... do you really think you need to tell me that?

But is he there to give us authority over what is true and what isn't?

 

[Benedicta00]

Can the Roman Catholic Denomination?
Is this limited to the denomination you happen to belong to?
If a teacher (person, congregation, denomination) self claims to be infallible, are they? If so, why? If not, why? Is your particular denomination exempt? If so, why?

Could you please quote for me any Scriptures or ECF from before the year 300 that specifically states that the Roman Catholic Denomination is, per se, infallible in it's own interpretations and that it alone is so? I'm not talking about catholic (universal, general, whole) - a position of Protestants, but of the Catholic denomination specificially. And that such is INFALLIBLE. If even your own denomination's earliest founders never claimed such for the Catholic denomination per se, that might be signficant. If they are only claiming such for Christians (catholic) and not specifically for your particular singular denominations, then it seems to me the Protestant with whom you are having this discussion has the stronger arguement - from your own Church Fathers.



My $0.01


Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah

But we don't claim to interpret scripture infallibly CJ, Dont start with the false premises.

We just claim to teach the faith of the apostles and the fathers correctly with out error.

 

[IamAdopted]

If the Holy Spirit teaches us, the who is really following him? You or me?

Don't you see how you can not prove based on the fact you feel convicted, and that you read the bible and that you have the HS, that what you come up with is objective truth?

I have news for you, i have the indwelling of the HS too, every bit as much as you do and it would behoove you to try to say I don't. It would behoove me to say the same about you.

So please tell me, which one of us is correct, you or me?

I can whip out as many verses as you can to support my beliefs.

So how do we settle this? How do we come to know the objective truth?

Bene you read according to what the church states do you not? If you read something in scripture that you do not understand do you go to the church's teaching on this? I don't. I dig deeper into scripture.. Scripture supports scripture..I don't go to an organization that claims one Person is infallable when it comes to interpreting scripture.. I Go to the word of God alone..I pray and seek my Father who is the Author of His word to teach me what His word says.. So I can get out of His word what He is teaching me.. I don't depend on myself. I depend on Christ my rock.. He will lead me into all truth..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But we don't claim to interpret scripture infallibly CJ

I'm not sure I agree that the CC does not claim any infallibility, but that's perhaps another discussion for another day.


Then why did you ask if the Protestant so interprets Scripture? You asked if she could interpret Scripture infallibly. I simply asked, can the RCC? IF your answer is no, then I see your point as entirely moot.

 

[IamAdopted]

Yes the HS lives in all of us who are re born in Christ... do you really think you need to tell me that?

But is he there to give us authority over what is true and what isn't?

He is there to teach us and to lead us into all truth..

 

[Benedicta00]

He is there to teach us and to lead us into all truth..

I agree, so why do think it is you and I go in opposite directions?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Never said that Melody. I'm not referring to your faith in Jesus Christ but the beliefs of the early Church.

You do ignore them, don't you?

I'm just asking, how do you rationalize that?

I ignore them..because every time some one on here quotes something from the ECF's that says something you guys don't like...well, they are wrong, someone else has come along and clairfied things...the ECF contradict each other...and when pointed out, you (not you personally, but people on these forums) change the rules. THAT is why I ignore their teaching...and WHY I only read the Word of God that has ALL truth IN it.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not sure I agree that the CC does not claim any infallibility, but that's perhaps another discussion for another day.


Then why did you ask if the Protestant so interprets Scripture? You asked if she could interpret Scripture infallibly. I simply asked, can the RCC? IF your answer is no, then I see your point as entirely moot.

The Church doesn't claim to interpret scripture and come up with doctrine from it. Cool it with the false premises.

All I want to know is, what gives them/you /anyone the authority to read the bible and tell me I'm the one who is wrong!?!

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

No... try not to get overly excited.

I'm saying that Jesus gave His Church the promise of the Holy Spirit who will lead it and guide it to and in all truth.

You think that promise went out to all ppl with a bible.

We think it went out to his Church and the charism (gift of the HS) of infallibility, which is teaching us the faith with out error, went to Peter.

Of course we all have the HS teaching us and leading us all, but I am referring to a particular gift of the HS that Christ gave to only one person at a time, he who sits in the chair of Peter in order to teach us the ancient faith with out error.


If you think this charism went out to every believer then why doesn't every believer agree with one another and why are we more diverse then ever?

that is NOT in the Bible though Bene. I am sorry but I totally disagree with that. Know what? I am going to leave the conversation..cause all this is doing is poisioning me more towards the catholic religion and I am getting angry with people that really, I don't have to be angry with. As a person Bene, I like you. We have some nice conversations, but I don't agree with your (church) doctrines..and it isn't worth getting angry and upset over and being angry with people.

 

[Benedicta00]

I ignore them..because every time some one on here quotes something from the ECF's that says something you guys don't like...well, they are wrong, someone else has come along and clairfied things...the ECF contradict each other...and when pointed out, you (not you personally, but people on these forums) change the rules. THAT is why I ignore their teaching...and WHY I only read the Word of God that has ALL truth IN it.

Thank you, that's all I asked. All I wanted to know is how you rationalize rejecting the ECF.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

All I want to know is, what gives them/you /anyone the authority to read the bible and tell me I'm the one who is wrong!?!

All I want to know is, what gives the Catholic denomination the authority to read the Bible and the Tradition it considers to be equally authoritative and then tell me I'm the one who is wrong!?!


Can all teachers (persons, congregations, denominations) do this, or only the singular specific denomination you belong to?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

The Church doesn't claim to interpret scripture and come up with doctrine from it. Cool it with the false premises.

All I want to know is, what gives them/you /anyone the authority to read the bible and tell me I'm the one who is wrong!?!

I read the Bible for what it tells ME personally. I am sorry if it came across as I was saying YOU personally was wrong. I don't think you are. I think some of the RCC doctrine is wrong. IF that is what you follow...well...but I will follow Jesus who promised to tell me...to seek HIM and HE will show me what I need to know. I am not making myself clear on this.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Thank you, that's all I asked. All I wanted to know is how you rationalize rejecting the ECF.

so you agree that the ECF contradict each other?

 

[IamAdopted]

I agree, so why do think it is you and I go in opposite directions?

Probably because you rely not only on scripture but on tradition do you not? I rely upon Gods word alone.. I am not much into tradition . I don't believe tradition to be inspired of God.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

All I want to know is, what gives the Catholic denomination the authority to read the Bible and the Tradition it considers to be equally authoritative and then tell me I'm the one who is wrong!?!


Can all teachers (persons, congregations, denominations) do this, or only the singular specific denomination you belong to?

excellent question..