Mary and Joseph

[Benedicta00]

Probably because you rely not only on scripture but on tradition do you not? I rely upon Gods word alone.. I am not much into tradition . I don't believe tradition to be inspired of God.

But I can say the same to you-- probably becuase you reject history and those who learn from the apostles himself...

So again- where is your authority that can not be wrong that can tell me I'm the one who is wrong?

I have news, i think your the one in error, so again- how can we settle this IAA?

where is the objective measure where we can come to know just who is right?

The bible, yeah that's worked out real well hasn't it?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Bene, do you reject the Bible...and lean more on the ECF's? That is what I am picking up...The Bible is the ONLY thing that is infallable..men..popes..pastors etc all CAN be wrong..but NOT the Word of God.

 

[Benedicta00]

so you agree that the ECF contradict each other?

Not no but heck no...

I assume that is what you have concluded and I guess that is how you rationalize not believing the early church.

But let's focus on the EO for a sec. They have just as much contempt for the Catholic Church as you do, but yet they do not reject the universal doctrines of Catholicism, ask your self why?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Not no but heck no...

I assume that is what you have concluded and I guess that is how you rationalize not believing the early church.

But let's focus on the EO for a sec. They have just as much contempt for the Catholic Church as you do, but yet they do not reject the universal doctrines of Catholicism, ask your self why?

but it has been shown...I forget what thread it was in now...some one quoted an ECF....it got explained away as not being 'correct' cause some other person came along and 'corrected' what was said...that is clear contradiction. THAT is why I reject it.

 

[repentant]

and as I said, IF that is how you find peace and your faith...good. I TRIED it and HATED it. I won't go back to it. I am sorry...but I won't. I have a TON of reasons not to like the denomination...but I won't get into it. BUT as I have said...I HAVE tried. IF you see it in the Word..ok..good...I DON'T.....I find my peace and work out my salvation other ways than the 'church'. Shoot, for all it matters, we could ALL be wrong...

Notice how everything you say is "I"...?

Youare also just looking for an easy way, and want to do what "YOU" want to..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Oh, forgot to answer your other question....maybe because they are sick of arguing? I dunno why they do what they do. When all is said and done...Jesus isn't going to ask us what we did/learned etc...from the ECF, He is going to ask what we did with HIS Son....all this bickering over denomination and doctrine isn't going to matter one hoot. Sorry..but I am tired of arguing this. I was really trying to learn, but when ALL I am getting told is that I am wrong, I can't read the Word for myself etc etc etc....I am tired of it. SO...I will just let you believe the way you do, and I hope you let me be too...

 

[Benedicta00]

Bene, do you reject the Bible...and lean more on the ECF's? That is what I am picking up...The Bible is the ONLY thing that is infallable..men..popes..pastors etc all CAN be wrong..but NOT the Word of God.

No I do not... but I do not create this false dichotomy either.

I do not pit Tradition against scripture, i do not pit Christ against His Church.

You all do and that IMO is ignoring many things which includes what Jesus says in scripture. You have created the false dichotomies, Christ never did and the early church shows us that he didn't.

The bible came out of Tradition, it is not the whole of Tradition, it is only what of it that was put to pen.

Tradition both oral and written is what God's reveal word to man is.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Notice how everything you say is "I"...?

Youare also just looking for an easy way, and want to do what "YOU" want to..

sorry...were you speaking to me?? Bro. again....SO says YOU! You have absoultely NO clue about me or my walk..so I would appreciate it if you would stop judging me. I am pretty tired of your accusations. Could you cool it please? thank you.

 

[repentant]

I have read the scripture.. It is not there....

Catholic from the Greek Katholiki, which means universal. Do you claim the Church is not universal and for everyone..

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[IamAdopted]

But I can say the same to you-- probably becuase you reject history and those who learn from the apostles himself...

So again- where is your authority that can not be wrong that can tell me I'm the one who is wrong?

I have news, i think your the one in error, so again- how can we settle this IAA?

where is the objective measure where we can come to know just who is right?

The bible, yeah that's worked out real well hasn't it?

My Authority is from the Word of God only.. It is not me that wrote the bible.. I only read it and apply Gods word to my life.. I read the bible to get to know my Father and my Lord.. I read the bible because Gods word is life to me. If something comes along that is contrary to what the word of God teaches me I shun this teaching because Scripture has not taught me such.. Tradition like I said earlier is not inspired.. Scripture is.. I read what those whom had an eye witness to Christ have to say... I read what they preach..For God has left me His word so that I can know Him the Only true God.. He sent me His Holy Spirit to teach me what He was written.. So I can become complete in Christ and in my Fathers word..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

No I do not... but I do not create this false dichotomy either.

I do not pit Tradition against scripture, i do not pit Christ against His Church.

You all do and that IMO is ignoring many things which includes what Jesus says in scripture. You have created the false dichotomies, Christ never did and the early church shows us that he didn't.

The bible came out of Tradition, it is not the whole of Tradition, it is only what of it that was put to pen.

Tradition both oral and written is what God's reveal word to man is.

Look, Bene, there is obviously no way to make clear what I think and believe. YOu have formed your opinion already, and no matter what I say, you are going to ignore it. If that is how you see things..I am sorry. It is incorrect, but I am not going to argue this further ok? You are set in your way, I guess I am in mine...no resolution..but I can still accept you as a friend and a person....the other stuff aside.

 

[IamAdopted]

Catholic from the Greek Katholiki, which means universal. Do you claim the Church is not universal and for everyone..

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Depends on what you look at as the church.. I see the Church as the bride of Christ. Not an organization that tells me what I should believe to be saved but a body that takes the word of God to heart and lives to please His Lord and Maker..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Depends on what you look at as the church.. I see the Church as the bride of Christ. Not an organization that tells me what I should believe to be saved but a body that takes the word of God to heart and lives to please His Lord and Maker..

That IS what the church is. NOT a denomination...Jesus didn't die for a denomination...but for HIS Bride that consists of ALL different kinds/makes/denominations!

 

[repentant]

We just don't put "Roman" in front of every quote from every Christian author, nor capitolize the word "Catholic" in their quotes so as to imply in modern English grammar that a proper name of a specific particular denomination is being implied.

I myself agree with you. Catholic=universal..this is what Ignatius meant.

If Peter could be wrong, if Thomas could be wrong, why couldn't some man who lived in the second century who never met Christ not be wrong?

Actually Ignatius did meet Christ. He was the little child that Christ put on His knee when He said we must become like little children.

 

[Benedicta00]

but it has been shown...I forget what thread it was in now...some one quoted an ECF....it got explained away as not being 'correct' cause some other person came along and 'corrected' what was said...that is clear contradiction. THAT is why I reject it.

Wait, I think you misunderstand.

The ECF is not Tradition nor are they infallible. One of them even became a heretic.


How it works is when we read the consensus of their work over hundreds of years, we can conclude based on the collective consensus of hundreds of years, that the faith that was taught then was always Catholic since the first century.

So if one early bishop said something that the rest of the Fathers didn't - then we can conclude becuase on the lack of consensus that the person was going against what the early Church as a whole taught.

The point is when we look at the faith as a whole of the early Church we see they were all catholic in belief and worship.

And all i ask is when faced with this, how do you rationalize it?

 

[Benedicta00]

My Authority is from the Word of God only.. It is not me that wrote the bible.. I only read it and apply Gods word to my life.. I read the bible to get to know my Father and my Lord.. I read the bible because Gods word is life to me. If something comes along that is contrary to what the word of God teaches me I shun this teaching because Scripture has not taught me such.. Tradition like I said earlier is not inspired.. Scripture is.. I read what those whom had an eye witness to Christ have to say... I read what they preach..For God has left me His word so that I can know Him the Only true God.. He sent me His Holy Spirit to teach me what He was written.. So I can become complete in Christ and in my Fathers word..

so you are infallible then?

 

[repentant]

what makes what Orthodoxy says is true? They don't have a pope any more than you do?

But what does make what the pope says is true, is Christ promise of the Holy Spirit.

Papal infallible is no different than what you already believe. You think God gave the gift of the HS to everyone who reads the bible and we think God gave it to just one person at a time, he who sits in Peter's chair. But not only and just to read the bible but to preserve and teach correctly the faith of the early Church. The faith you ignore.

So Catholics believe that only the Pope is filled with the Holy Spirit???

WOW

 

[repentant]

The Holy Spirit is Christ in us bene.. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.. We His people called by His name. Sealed with His Spirit washed in His blood. Speaking His word..

I would have to disagree with the bolded part...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What I was taught in the RCC...

"It is the [Catholic] Church that determines what is and is not Tradition."

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Wait, I think you misunderstand.

The ECF is not Tradition nor are they infallible. One of them even became a heretic.


How it works is when we read the consensus of their work over hundreds of years, we can conclude based on the collective consensus of hundreds of years, that the faith that was taught then was always Catholic since the first century.

So if one early bishop said something that the rest of the Fathers didn't - then we can conclude becuase on the lack of consensus that the person was going against what the early Church as a whole taught.

The point is when we look at the faith as a whole of the early Church we see they were all catholic in belief and worship.

And all i ask is when faced with this, how do you rationalize it?

no, I don't misunderstand..cause you are doing it now. WHO says that ONE person was wrong?? WHAT if all the others were...just playing devils advocate here. WHO is the one to suggest who/what is right and wrong??