Mary and Joseph

[Benedicta00]

why are you so offended at this? Bene..none of it is in Scripture. YOU have been programmed to see it the way you do...maybe YOU could be wrong? Maybe some of the doctrine etc YOU have been taught is wrong? If you have peace and your faith is ok in the catholic denomination, that is fine. I honestly, went, tried it..and hated it. I won't go back. I saw/heard/learned stuff there that is so wrong according to the Word..not what is taught. I am sorry, but SOME of the stuff the church teaches IS wrong.

Because it is in scripture and you just disagree that it is.

What I take issue with is the level of self authority you all give yourselves when you tell me what I read so clearly is not in there... Melody, do you understand that I know that it is in there? That I believe Catholicism is 110% biblical?

Scripture wars gets no one, no where. I can fling as many verses at you as you throw at me.

There has got to be an objective way God gave us to come to know the fullness of His revealed truth that does not depend on our own lowly fallibility.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

If you conclude that, becuase you think the bible is all that there is and you read it through Protestant colored glasses with a contempt for the Catholic Church then no wonder you don't see what we do.

And I don't see what you do for the same reason.

But ask yourself, why do we see this so clearly and you don't?

Billions are Catholic and Orthodox all over the world, so there is something to our claim.

I can show you every biblical justification for what the Church teaches and you'll just say I'm twisting scripture and I can say the same about you... so where does that leave us?

you are no more infallible than me and I am no more infallible than you are.

So surely God gave us an objective way to discern this that is independent of both of us trying to interpret scripture for ourselves.

Wouldn't you agree?

you see your life through catholic glasses..yet you condemn others for seeing the truth too? I don't get it. I am sorry..but you can NOT tell me that ALL 1+ billion people that CLAIM to be catholic..practice it and are IN Mass EVERY SINGLE time...NO way. I can say I am a car..doesn't make me one...I can say I am catholic/protestant...but doesn't make me one..any more than sitting in McDonalds makes me a big mac....people SAY alot of things...doesn't mean it is. I am sorry..but I DID try the catholic church and HATED it. SO, no, I don't see it throught protestant eyes..I tried it. ANY one can take Scripture and make is say what they want. GO to the ethics debates and see how they twist things to make the Word say being gay is ok!? I mean..come on. Reality is...NO one...has it all right NO one.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Because it is in scripture and you just disagree that it is.

What I take issue with is the level of self authority you all give yourselves when you tell me what I read so clearly is not in there... Melody, do you understand that I know that it is in there? That I believe Catholicism is 110% biblical?

Scripture wars gets no one, no where. I can fling as many verses at you as you throw at me.

There has got to be an objective way God gave us to come to know the fullness of His revealed truth that does not depend on our own lowly fallibility.

and as I said, IF that is how you find peace and your faith...good. I TRIED it and HATED it. I won't go back to it. I am sorry...but I won't. I have a TON of reasons not to like the denomination...but I won't get into it. BUT as I have said...I HAVE tried. IF you see it in the Word..ok..good...I DON'T.....I find my peace and work out my salvation other ways than the 'church'. Shoot, for all it matters, we could ALL be wrong...

 

[IamAdopted]

Bull to all of that. and half of what you complain about isn't doctrine but devotions.

See folks? One of two thing will happen once you read the faith of the first generations of Christians after the apostles themselves, one will either deny the teachings of those who actually learned from the apostles themselves or they will be convicted and surprised by truth.

I bet IAA didn't realize the Fathers like Polycarp learned form John himself.

IAA, you read the bible and conclude stuff I never would, becuase that is how you have bee programed to read the bible.

You have been taught that Rome is this, that and the other thing, but what makes you think your exegesis is correct? And that the anti Catholic rhetoric spin is fair and balanced?

You are not infallible, are you? You could be very well mistaken about the whole thing. Can't you?

That's something for you to consider. Denial can be a, you know what.

I have been walking with the Lord for a while now. I came out of a religion. The mormon religion to be exact.. I came to know My savior Jesus. As I study more and more with His word I can see the error in other teaching. This is why God has given us His word.. So we can be sanctified in the truth..So we have a strong and unmovable foundation that we can take everything and put up against to see where error is.. This is why I am so passionate about the word of God. The more I read Gods word the More I see His truth. The more I am set free.. Can Gods word be wrong? No it cannot be for God is not a man that He should lie.. Can a chruch be wrong.. You bet they can.. They can take one part of Scripture and make it mean what they want it to mean.. Leading many astray. This is why God has written His word.. This is why He has given His word. To allow Gods word to speak to us not us speak what we want the scriptures to say to us.. I have the Holy Spirit in me..I am sealed with Him.. He is my teacher..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Don't see Paul or any of the Apostles teaching Catholicism..

Only because you dont recognize it... It' there.

Forgive me..

 

[Benedicta00]

you're right, the record is there.

difference is, most other people will acknowledge that the church changed time and time again, the leaders of the church committed heinous crimes, erroneous teachings were forwarded, disunity and heresy spread, politics took precedence over spiritual matters. Really what it boils down to, is whomever is in charge in any given time period calls the shots on what history is true, what history is not. Today is no different.

Yes time and time again men fail, big surprise there. This is why you shouldn't be putting supposed men of God on a pedestal.

When are you all going to learn how to separate the the sinful mean evil men from the actual teachings of the Church since the days of the apostles?

And when are you going to be fair and truthful and acknowledge that for every bad man, there are thousands of good ones?

The Church has hurt ppl, Non Catholic men of the cloth has hurt ppl too. So where does that leave us? With Protestantism and bible only fundamenatlism?

Again, I ask since the time Luther freed the peasants from big bad mean Rome, when have we had peace and oneness in the body of Christ? How are ppl anymore protected against men of God hurting ppl?

How has sola scripture solved what you complain about?

We are more divided then ever.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have been walking with the Lord for a while now. I came out of a religion. The mormon religion to be exact.. I came to know My savior Jesus. As I study more and more with His word I can see the error in other teaching. This is why God has given us His word.. So we can be sanctified in the truth..So we have a strong and unmovable foundation that we can take everything and put up against to see where error is.. This is why I am so passionate about the word of God. The more I read Gods word the More I see His truth. The more I am set free.. Can Gods word be wrong? No it cannot be for God is not a man that He should lie.. Can a chruch be wrong.. You bet they can.. They can take one part of Scripture and make it mean what they want it to mean.. Leading many astray. This is why God has written His word.. This is why He has given His word. To allow Gods word to speak to us not us speak what we want the scriptures to say to us.. I have the Holy Spirit in me..I am sealed with Him.. He is my teacher..

Thanks so much for sharing where you come from... It helps me so much.

God Bless You...

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

you see your life through catholic glasses..yet you condemn others for seeing the truth too? I don't get it. I am sorry..but you can NOT tell me that ALL 1+ billion people that CLAIM to be catholic..practice it and are IN Mass EVERY SINGLE time...NO way. I can say I am a car..doesn't make me one...I can say I am catholic/protestant...but doesn't make me one..any more than sitting in McDonalds makes me a big mac....people SAY alot of things...doesn't mean it is. I am sorry..but I DID try the catholic church and HATED it. SO, no, I don't see it throught protestant eyes..I tried it. ANY one can take Scripture and make is say what they want. GO to the ethics debates and see how they twist things to make the Word say being gay is ok!? I mean..come on. Reality is...NO one...has it all right NO one.

I condemn no one Melody. Please stop personalizing everything.

I am only trying to get you all thinking.

You obviously have a personal reason why you have issues with Catholicism and I emphasize with you but my point with you is, what does that have to do with the teachings of the ECF?

Nothing.

The faith of the very first Christians after the apostles didn't fall away, it was Catholic and we all have to deal with this in our own way, I guess.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have been walking with the Lord for a while now. I came out of a religion. The mormon religion to be exact.. I came to know My savior Jesus. As I study more and more with His word I can see the error in other teaching. This is why God has given us His word.. So we can be sanctified in the truth..So we have a strong and unmovable foundation that we can take everything and put up against to see where error is.. This is why I am so passionate about the word of God. The more I read Gods word the More I see His truth. The more I am set free.. Can Gods word be wrong? No it cannot be for God is not a man that He should lie.. Can a chruch be wrong.. You bet they can.. They can take one part of Scripture and make it mean what they want it to mean.. Leading many astray. This is why God has written His word.. This is why He has given His word. To allow Gods word to speak to us not us speak what we want the scriptures to say to us.. I have the Holy Spirit in me..I am sealed with Him.. He is my teacher..

Well I can see why you have a fear of any organized religion then and I do emphasize with you there but I hope I can get you all to see how we are so subjective and we see through our past, our pain and our hurt sometimes.

This is why I know God gave to us an objective way to come to know truth that is independent of ourselves trying to figure out what is right or what the bible says.

And I do not doubt for a minute that you walk with the Lord.

I'm just trying to move you all in your thinking. We have this early Church since 110 AD, just 77 years after Christ died and rose and ascended to heaven.
Catholic

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

These ppl learned for The apostles personally- how could they be the ones wrong?

 

[IamAdopted]

Only because you dont recognize it... It' there.

Forgive me..

I have read the scripture.. It is not there.. I see being justified in Christ alone by faith alone written in the scriptures.. taking Abraham as an example.. I see that when we are born again that we have eternal life.. I see I can go to my Father with sins I commit and He forgives me and cleanses me.. I see with Christ in me that through Christ I can overcome sin in my life to the Glory of my King.. I don't have to walk around ashamed.. I don't have to worry if I am good enough because it is not in anything I do that makes me good enough. It is in Christ that my sanctification is.. What do you see in the scriptures? Do you see pennance? Do you see purgatory? Do you see you need to go to a human priest to confess sin? I don't.. It is not in there.. Christ is my High Priest..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

And funnily enough, the Bible comes from the Catholics imagine that!!



Jesus led his apostles and disciples into Jerusalem for the celebration of the Passover. If you first of all read up on how this beautiful celebration is done, you will see that the Catholic Mass follows that, then Jesus added the ultimate gift to this beautiful celebration...His Body and Blood, which we the Catholics continue to do, what Jesus commanded "do this in memory of me". Jesus did not say "do this symbolizing what I have done in memory of me".

So, yeah, the Catholic Mass not only comes from the Bible...it completely comes from the Bible, from beginning to end, the whole Bible.

Incense...yeah, that comes from the Bible too, see we see these Biblical Traditions as beautiful, we don't put down what God told us to do in the Old Testement, like you seem to be doing in your earlier statements.

I DO read the Word thank you...and yes, the Passover is VERY beautiful...as is communion. You should of been at ours last week in church. It was AMAZING. I celebrate it and don't appreciate your snide comment that I don't. It is things like this by you and others that do nothing to bring honor to your faith. You shine a very negative light. Sorry...but when you treat people like this...negative..does nothing to help your cause.

 

[Benedicta00]

and as I said, IF that is how you find peace and your faith...good. I TRIED it and HATED it. I won't go back to it. I am sorry...but I won't. I have a TON of reasons not to like the denomination...but I won't get into it. BUT as I have said...I HAVE tried. IF you see it in the Word..ok..good...I DON'T.....I find my peace and work out my salvation other ways than the 'church'. Shoot, for all it matters, we could ALL be wrong...

But truth does not boil down to what makes us most peaceful.

Truth is not subjective to our personal experiences.

Truth is objective and i can not choose my truth and you yours, there is only one truth, Melody and we all need to find it, no matter where it may lead us.

I know you hate the Church and you probably have a right to, but try to separate the ppl who hurt you from the faith we have had since the time of the apostles.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have read the scripture.. It is not there.. I see being justified in Christ alone by faith alone written in the scriptures.. taking Abraham as an example.. I see that when we are born again that we have eternal life.. I see I can go to my Father with sins I commit and He forgives me and cleanses me.. I see with Christ in me that through Christ I can overcome sin in my life to the Glory of my King.. I don't have to walk around ashamed.. I don't have to worry if I am good enough because it is not in anything I do that makes me good enough. It is in Christ that my sanctification is.. What do you see in the scriptures? Do you see pennance? Do you see purgatory? Do you see you need to go to a human priest to confess sin? I don't.. It is not in there.. Christ is my High Priest..

But how do you know you are reading it correctly? Are you infallible?

 

[IamAdopted]

Well I can see why you have a fear of any organized religion then and I do emphasize with you there but I hope I can get you all to see how we are so subjective and we see through our past, our pain and our hurt sometimes.

This is why I know God gave to us an objective way to come to know truth that is independent of ourselves trying to figure out what is right or what the bible says.

And I do not doubt for a minute that you walk with the Lord.

I'm just trying to move you all in your thinking. We have this early Church since 110 AD, just 77 years after Christ died and rose and ascended to heaven.
Catholic

These ppl learned for The apostles personally- how could they be the ones wrong?

I also learn from them bene.. What they preached they also penned.. Maybe not all but all that we need to become a believer in Christ and What they penned is for us to follow today..My History comes from the bible. What others did in their walk with the Lord does not influence me of it does not line up with scripture. I don't need to think about what others did. This is my walk with the Lord and His word teaches me, corrects me, and fully equips me to be the person that Christ has called me to be.. His word is alive and active in my life.. What men of old did with the Lord was their walk with the Lord.. I look forward and not backward.. I take all that God has for me from His written word.. He tells me in His word all I need to be a Christian, wife, mother and minister to needs of others..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

But truth does not boil down to what makes us most peaceful.

Truth is not subjective to our personal experiences.

Truth is objective and i can not choose my truth and you yours, there is only one truth, Melody and we all need to find it, no matter where it may lead us.

I know you hate the Church and you probably have a right to, but try to separate the ppl who hurt you from the faith we have had since the time of the apostles.

Bene, the Truth is the Man Jesus Christ and Him crucified. NOT a denomination. I will seek and follow Jesus and NO church...sorry. There are some good people that happen to be catholic..that is cool. I don't have a problem with that. BUT I just do not see catholic church as the Truth or the true faith. I am sorry...been there, tried it...won't go there again.

AND FOR the record...I DO NOT hate CATHOLICS as "some" have implied here...

 

[IamAdopted]

Truth is objective and i can not choose my truth and you yours, there is only one truth, Melody and we all need to find it, no matter where it may lead us.

The only truth that I need is written in the word of God. Jesus prayed that the Father would sanctify us in truth. Then He goes on to say for your word is truth..I find all the truth in the word of God.. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is fallable? For He is our teacher.. We allow Him to teach us..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

The only truth that I need is written in the word of God. Jesus prayed that the Father would sanctify us in truth. Then He goes on to say for your word is truth..I find all the truth in the word of God.. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is fallable? For He is our teacher.. We allow Him to teach us..

amen. what makes what the pope has to say 'truth'?? The SAME Holy SPirit that is IN US too??? I am sure he does speak some truth...BUT, the Holy Spirit is IN us too...so HE can lead us to truth...The Man Jesus Christ. It is ALL about Jesus...not a denomination.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have read the scripture.. It is not there.. I see being justified in Christ alone by faith alone written in the scriptures.. taking Abraham as an example.. I see that when we are born again that we have eternal life.. I see I can go to my Father with sins I commit and He forgives me and cleanses me.. I see with Christ in me that through Christ I can overcome sin in my life to the Glory of my King.. I don't have to walk around ashamed.. I don't have to worry if I am good enough because it is not in anything I do that makes me good enough. It is in Christ that my sanctification is.. What do you see in the scriptures? Do you see pennance? Do you see purgatory? Do you see you need to go to a human priest to confess sin? I don't.. It is not in there.. Christ is my High Priest..

Pardon the expression, but our untrained eyes would not and could not see it. It has to be read in the context of The Divine Liturgy for us to see it.

I would venture to say that you see no evidence of liturgical worship in the NT... would that be a true statement? No evidence of The Holy Eucharist being offered...

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Do you not find something new (a new understanding) in The Holy Scriptures every time that you read them?

Where do we think these new understandings are leading us to if not unity in one body, partaking of the same Holy Eucharist?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Forgive me...

 

[IamAdopted]

Pardon the expression, but our untrained eyes would not and could not see it. It has to be read in the context of The Divine Liturgy for us to see it.

I would venture to say that you see no evidence of liturgical worship in the NT... would that be a true statement? No evidence of The Holy Eucharist being offered...

Forgive me...

I don't believe that any priest can pull Christ off of His throne and place Him in a piece of bread.. I see communion as in rememberance of Christ as He said.. So no I don't see this happening in the scriptures..