Mary and Joseph

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I don't believe that any priest can pull Christ off of His throne and place Him in a piece of bread.. I see communion as in rememberance of Christ as He said.. So no I don't see this happening in the scriptures..

I see.

That (his presence in The Holy Eucharist) is fundemental to our Christian faith.

Would you then say that all the Christians of the first 1500 years were in error, and therefore you would not associate yourself with those Christians, as you do not believe what they believed?

Forgive me...

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I don't believe that any priest can pull Christ off of His throne and place Him in a piece of bread.. I see communion as in rememberance of Christ as He said.. So no I don't see this happening in the scriptures..

I don't recall any Catholic or Orthodox o Lutheran or Anglican claiming to "pull Christ off the throne"- yet they all believe that Christ is mystically present in the Eucharist, and believe that the scriptures bear this out. Do you really beleve that Christ's Presence on earth, whether in us or in the Cup, means that He cannot also be on the Throne simultaneously? This would seem to make Him finite. Certainly your post is a strawman and a mischaracterization, but it also may be a grave theological error on your part.

 

[Benedicta00]

I also learn from them bene.. What they preached they also penned.. Maybe not all but all that we need to become a believer in Christ and What they penned is for us to follow today..My History comes from the bible. What others did in their walk with the Lord does not influence me of it does not line up with scripture. I don't need to think about what others did. This is my walk with the Lord and His word teaches me, corrects me, and fully equips me to be the person that Christ has called me to be.. His word is alive and active in my life.. What men of old did with the Lord was their walk with the Lord.. I look forward and not backward.. I take all that God has for me from His written word.. He tells me in His word all I need to be a Christian, wife, mother and minister to needs of others..

But you are avoiding what we are asking you, are you infallible? How can you clam you know infallibly what lines up with the word and what doesn't?

My faith lines us perfectly with the word, but you say it doesn't. i say say the same about your beliefs, so who's right, IAA, how do we settle this?

I can look to the early faith of those who learned form the apostles themselves, who were closet to the apostolic era, I can see were over hundreds of years the early church all write about the same beliefs, the same practices and I can go to the bible and get a much clearer picture of the scriptures when I read it light if the faith of the early Church.


There lies the difference. I do not ignore what those closet to Christ taught for the first 300 years of Christianity. I can see that the faith was indeed Catholic, not protestant or fundamentalist in the first century, in the 2nd, 3 rd, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and all the way until now.

I then read and I do not ignore the reformation and all the history that surrounds it and I can see where man came in and created Protestantism and sola scripture in a protest to the Church of Rome.

Did you realize that they never protested the faith of the east and the Orthodox? Just Rome. One must ask if Rome's abuse was the core of the issue, why change doctrine that was universally accepted for 1600 years?

If Rome was Luther's deal then why didn't he go to the Orthodox when they invited him?

maybe because self authority seemed tempting.

All I'm saying is, one can not just ignore historical facts, and cling to their fallible interpretations of what they think lines up with the word and what doesn't. And one can not ignore that Jesus prayerd, "may they all be one..."

It's intellectually dishonest to do that.

Protestantism and fundamentalism brought us no closer to being one. It has driven us further apart.

 

[Benedicta00]

Bene, the Truth is the Man Jesus Christ and Him crucified. NOT a denomination. I will seek and follow Jesus and NO church...sorry. There are some good people that happen to be catholic..that is cool. I don't have a problem with that. BUT I just do not see catholic church as the Truth or the true faith. I am sorry...been there, tried it...won't go there again.

AND FOR the record...I DO NOT hate CATHOLICS as "some" have implied here...

and all I'm saying is, since the early days of the Church, 77 years after Christ we have the first written document that says the Church was Catholic and not just a invisible lose body of believers with bibles.

Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. This was written by a man who lived during the days the apostles lived.

How could this man be wrong? And secondly, what we see after that in subsequent generations is more of the same. And here is the kicker, what we don't see is any fundamental beliefs, we don't see 'bible onlys' either. We see none of what protestantism is today.

If the early church wasn't Catholic and was fundamentalist, then where are they in early history? Where were they all hiding?

I hope you can get the point I'm making. We are not crazy for following Catholicism or Orthodoxy, we do not follow it for personal reasons either, this is NOT a matter of preference, it's matter of whether or not God indeed left us a Church where we will come to know the fullness of divine revelation that does not depend on us trying to figure it all out.

 

[Benedicta00]

The only truth that I need is written in the word of God. Jesus prayed that the Father would sanctify us in truth. Then He goes on to say for your word is truth..I find all the truth in the word of God.. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is fallable? For He is our teacher.. We allow Him to teach us..

That is what you believe, it is your subjective view.

You in no way can assert this infallibly, can you?

The very book you claim we are to "only go by" doesn't even support that. Your premise does not line up with the word.

So where do you get the authority to speak?

This is what I'm saying- you will hang on to this "belief" that the bible and your personal subjective interpretation of it, trumps everything even if it contradicts everything the early Church believed.

You then would have to conclude that 77 years after Christ, these ppl went off track.

You may find that realistic but I don't.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

and all I'm saying is, since the early days of the Church, 77 years after Christ we have the first written document that says the Church was Catholic

And Protestants completely agree.

We just don't put "Roman" in front of every quote from every Christian author, nor capitolize the word "Catholic" in their quotes so as to imply in modern English grammar that a proper name of a specific particular denomination is being implied.

Where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. This was written by a man who lived during the days the apostles lived.

This is the Protestant position.

As I understand it, the Catholic position is that where the Pope is, there is the Catholic Church.

How could this man be wrong?

If Peter could be wrong, if Thomas could be wrong, why couldn't some man who lived in the second century who never met Christ not be wrong? But, again, he never remotely even hinted that the Roman Catholic denomination was the one true denomination.

If the early church wasn't Catholic and was fundamentalist, then where are they in early history? Where were they all hiding?

The early church was catholic - and still is.
What cannot be substantiated is that it was the Roman Catholic denomination.

it's matter of whether or not God indeed left us a Church where we will come to know the fullness of divine revelation that does not depend on us trying to figure it all out.

I agree. It's a primary reason why I left the CC.



Thank you for your excellent contribution to the discussion and for reading my $0.01.


May God richly bless you and yours in Christ our Suffering Servant in this holy season of Lent.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[IamAdopted]

I see.

That (his presence in The Holy Eucharist) is fundemental to our Christian faith.

Would you then say that all the Christians of the first 1500 years were in error, and therefore you would not associate yourself with those Christians, as you do not believe what they believed?

Forgive me...

I would associate myself with them. I don't have to believe what another person believes to love them. I just don't have to put myself under thier authority..There are so many that believe and are born again in the world. I don't care what thier label is over where they go to fellowship.. If they have the Spirit of Christ in them is what matters to me.. For all people..Jesus came to save the sinners.. HE came to die so that we all may live.. I believe that Christ talked figurativily for the communion. For when He spoke to the Apostles and Disciples about communion He gave them bread and fruit of the vine. Telling us to do this in Rememberance of Him. His Presence lives in Us through the Holy Spirit..

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

 

[Benedicta00]

amen. what makes what the pope has to say 'truth'?? The SAME Holy SPirit that is IN US too??? I am sure he does speak some truth...BUT, the Holy Spirit is IN us too...so HE can lead us to truth...The Man Jesus Christ. It is ALL about Jesus...not a denomination.

what makes what Orthodoxy says is true? They don't have a pope any more than you do?

But what does make what the pope says is true, is Christ promise of the Holy Spirit.

Papal infallible is no different than what you already believe. You think God gave the gift of the HS to everyone who reads the bible and we think God gave it to just one person at a time, he who sits in Peter's chair. But not only and just to read the bible but to preserve and teach correctly the faith of the early Church. The faith you ignore.

 

[IamAdopted]

But you are avoiding what we are asking you, are you infallible? How can you clam you know infallibly what lines up with the word and what doesn't?

My faith lines us perfectly with the word, but you say it doesn't. i say say the same about your beliefs, so who's right, IAA, how do we settle this?

I can look to the early faith of those who learned form the apostles themselves, who were closet to the apostolic era, I can see were over hundreds of years the early church all write about the same beliefs, the same practices and I can go to the bible and get a much clearer picture of the scriptures when I read it light if the faith of the early Church.


There lies the difference. I do not ignore what those closet to Christ taught for the first 300 years of Christianity. I can see that the faith was indeed Catholic, not protestant or fundamentalist in the first century, in the 2nd, 3 rd, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and all the way until now.

I then read and I do not ignore the reformation and all the history that surrounds it and I can see where man came in and created Protestantism and sola scripture in a protest to the Church of Rome.

Did you realize that they never protested the faith of the east and the Orthodox? Just Rome. One must ask if Rome's abuse was the core of the issue, why change doctrine that was universally accepted for 1600 years?

If Rome was Luther's deal then why didn't he go to the Orthodox when they invited him?

maybe because self authority seemed tempting.

All I'm saying is, one can not just ignore historical facts, and cling to their fallible interpretations of what they think lines up with the word and what doesn't. And one can not ignore that Jesus prayerd, "may they all be one..."

It's intellectually dishonest to do that.

Protestantism and fundamentalism brought us no closer to being one. It has driven us further apart.

I am not ignoring this .. I am not infallable but the Holy Spirit is.. He teaches us.. We listen. We go to the word of God with an open heart and Mind and allow the Lord to teach us His word by His spirit..Who is right? Gods word is right.. Show me where some of the dogma's of the Catholic faith are in scripture? How they line up. We can go into this more deeply if you like. I don't know if this is the thread to do so or not. I will not go into the Catholic site.. So you tell me where we can get into this deeper conversation.. In a orderly fashion.. We can compare if you like.. We can reason together. I don't have a problem with this...

 

[IamAdopted]

what makes what Orthodoxy says is true? They don't have a pope any more than you do?

But what does make what the pope says is true, is Christ promise of the Holy Spirit.

Papal infallible is no different than what you already believe. You think God gave the gift of the HS to everyone who reads the bible and we think God gave it to just one person at a time, he who sits in Peter's chair. But not only and just to read the bible but to preserve and teach correctly the faith of the early Church. The faith you ignore.

The Holy Spirit is Christ in us bene.. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.. We His people called by His name. Sealed with His Spirit washed in His blood. Speaking His word..

 

[IamAdopted]

But you are avoiding what we are asking you, are you infallible? How can you clam you know infallibly what lines up with the word and what doesn't?

My faith lines us perfectly with the word, but you say it doesn't. i say say the same about your beliefs, so who's right, IAA, how do we settle this?

I can look to the early faith of those who learned form the apostles themselves, who were closet to the apostolic era, I can see were over hundreds of years the early church all write about the same beliefs, the same practices and I can go to the bible and get a much clearer picture of the scriptures when I read it light if the faith of the early Church.


There lies the difference. I do not ignore what those closet to Christ taught for the first 300 years of Christianity. I can see that the faith was indeed Catholic, not protestant or fundamentalist in the first century, in the 2nd, 3 rd, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and all the way until now.

I then read and I do not ignore the reformation and all the history that surrounds it and I can see where man came in and created Protestantism and sola scripture in a protest to the Church of Rome.

Did you realize that they never protested the faith of the east and the Orthodox? Just Rome. One must ask if Rome's abuse was the core of the issue, why change doctrine that was universally accepted for 1600 years?

If Rome was Luther's deal then why didn't he go to the Orthodox when they invited him?

maybe because self authority seemed tempting.

All I'm saying is, one can not just ignore historical facts, and cling to their fallible interpretations of what they think lines up with the word and what doesn't. And one can not ignore that Jesus prayerd, "may they all be one..."

It's intellectually dishonest to do that.

Protestantism and fundamentalism brought us no closer to being one. It has driven us further apart.

My faith is in Christ alone.. He is my righteousness.. I have none on my own.. He has done it all for me. I need to abide in Him and His words to abide in me...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

what makes what Orthodoxy says is true? They don't have a pope any more than you do?

But what does make what the pope says is true, is Christ promise of the Holy Spirit.

Papal infallible is no different than what you already believe. You think God gave the gift of the HS to everyone who reads the bible and we think God gave it to just one person at a time, he who sits in Peter's chair. But not only and just to read the bible but to preserve and teach correctly the faith of the early Church. The faith you ignore.

so, the Holy Spirit is ONLY given to the POPE?? Um...sorry....THAT is SO against Scripture. He has poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh...sorry...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

The Holy Spirit is Christ in us bene.. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.. We His people called by His name. Sealed with His Spirit washed in His blood. Speaking His word..

I do NOT NOT NOT repeat NOT ignore 'faith'. I IGNORE the CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS teaching. BIG HUGE gigundous difference.

 

[IamAdopted]

I do NOT NOT NOT repeat NOT ignore 'faith'. I IGNORE the CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS teaching. BIG HUGE gigundous difference.

Did I miss something?? LOL..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Did I miss something?? LOL..

No, sorry, that wasn't directed at you...It was for Bene who keeps saying I ignore the 'faith'. I ignore SOME of the catholic denominations teaching....not the faith of Jesus Christ who died for ME!

 

[IamAdopted]

No, sorry, that wasn't directed at you...It was for Bene who keeps saying I ignore the 'faith'. I ignore SOME of the catholic denominations teaching....not the faith of Jesus Christ who died for ME!

Tee hee.. I knew that I had to through a cog in somewhere. LOL..

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't believe that any priest can pull Christ off of His throne and place Him in a piece of bread.. I see communion as in rememberance of Christ as He said.. So no I don't see this happening in the scriptures..

well we don't believe that's what happens either.

Here is why I think you can't see it although Christ said it perfectly clear- "My flesh is really food and my blood is really drink..."

You only see that Christ is only and just spiritually present to us.

He is present to us spiritually but he is also present to us in his creation, we have his trascending presence all around us.

And he is also present to us when we assemble in his name where two or three are gathered.

BUT he is also present to us sacramentally- his grace is made present to us through the ministry of His Church but more important he is physically present to us in the Holy Eucharist.

He said he was not going to leave us orphans, that he will be with us till the end of time... and he hasn't left us... he has remained present with us, he has physically remained with us in Holy Communion and this is where he unites himself, gives all of himself to us in Holy Communion and we share a real personal encounter with him and this is what having a personal relationship with him really is in it's fullness.


If you understood this, then Jesus words, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life in him and I will raise him on the last day, for my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed and he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I in him..."

These words would come alive off the page once you understood that Christ is made present to us in several ways other then just spiritual, mainly physically.

So I can say the very same thing you do, our beliefs, especially belief in the Eucharist lines up perfectly with scripture.

 

[Benedicta00]

I do NOT NOT NOT repeat NOT ignore 'faith'. I IGNORE the CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS teaching. BIG HUGE gigundous difference.

Never said that Melody. I'm not referring to your faith in Jesus Christ but the beliefs of the early Church.

You do ignore them, don't you?

I'm just asking, how do you rationalize that?

 

[IamAdopted]

well we don't believe that's what happens either.

Here is why I think you can't see it although Christ said it perfectly clear- "My flesh is really food and my blood is really drink..."

You only see that Christ is only and just spiritually present to us.

He is present to us spiritually but he is also present to us in his creation, we have his trascending presence all around us.

And he is also present to us when we assemble in his name where two or three are gathered.

BUT he is also present to us sacramentally- his grace is made present to us through the ministry of His Church but more important he is physically present to us in the Holy Eucharist.

He said he was not going to leave us orphans, that he will be with us till the end of time... and he hasn't left us... he has remained present with us, he has physically remained with us in Holy Communion and this is where he unites himself, gives all of himself to us in Holy Communion and we share a real personal encounter with him and this is what having a personal relationship with him really is in it's fullness.


If you understood this, then Jesus words, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life in him and I will raise him on the last day, for my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed and he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I in him..."

These words would come alive off the page once you understood that Christ is made present to us in several ways other then just spiritual, mainly physically.

So I can say the very same thing you do, our beliefs, especially belief in the Eucharist lines up perfectly with scripture.

No His presence is in His people. We partake of communion to remember it is because of His death that we can have life.. It is in His death that we have forgiveness.. He is the bread of Life. Every word He spoke out of His mouth or through the Apostles is the bread of life.. He is the manna from Heaven.. The true Manna

 

[Benedicta00]

so, the Holy Spirit is ONLY given to the POPE?? Um...sorry....THAT is SO against Scripture. He has poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh...sorry...

No... try not to get overly excited.

I'm saying that Jesus gave His Church the promise of the Holy Spirit who will lead it and guide it to and in all truth.

You think that promise went out to all ppl with a bible.

We think it went out to his Church and the charism (gift of the HS) of infallibility, which is teaching us the faith with out error, went to Peter.

Of course we all have the HS teaching us and leading us all, but I am referring to a particular gift of the HS that Christ gave to only one person at a time, he who sits in the chair of Peter in order to teach us the ancient faith with out error.


If you think this charism went out to every believer then why doesn't every believer agree with one another and why are we more diverse then ever?