Martin Luther's "editing"

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Greeter
What about this post of yours?

It appears you are saying "Catholics Good" and "Protestants Bad". Are you telling me that Catholics don't make mistakes?!? Or is every Catholic on these boards perfect?!?

No, that is not what I am saying. I've been surfing these forums for some time now..like 5 plus years, so I speak from experience.

Nine times out of ten...a Protestant see's the word Catholic and they feel obligated to go out of their way to help the poor, lost Catholic who they think is nothing more than a lost soul on their way to hell.

We spend our time here correcting that misunderstanding. We rarely go after Protestants for their beliefs.

Originally posted by Greeter
As long as there are human beings within any organization mistakes will be made. The recent crisis of the Catholic Church is a great example. People are surprised that "Priests" could commit some of the horrible acts they have. Priests are human beings and are subject to the same flaws everyone else is.

No one here has ever made the claims that Catholics, priests or the laypeople are perfect.

Originally posted by Greeter
As our Pastors often point out, once you get involved with any Ministry, you will have a bullseye put on you by the devil, and its size will be proportional to your contribution to the Church

Couldn't agree more.

Also, at no time did I state that Protestants could not post in "One Bread" or share their POV.

No, there is just the appearance of that.

Take a look in there ...there are several Protestant/Catholics discussions going on right now. Have I closed any of them down?

Originally posted by Greeter
But many keep posting this "Luther edited the Bible" idea as if a "dig" against Protestants.

Well..being a former Protestant myself - the facts about what Martin Luther and others did during the Reformation made me concerned enough to do the research and eventually become Catholic.

The claims Protestants have about Catholics and "man-made traditions" is very ironic since the majority of the beliefs that form the Protestant movement were created by men who decided they knew better than the Holy Spirit and the Church.

Originally posted by Greeter
Something to consider is how you are portraying yourself.

I am sorry that you feel abused by Protestants and have had rough things happen to you. It appears you are now lashing out at all Protestants, as if you have a chip on your shoulder. Not all Protestants are out to get Catholics.

I personally am not lashing out at anyone. Like I said above, I am a convert, many of the folks posting here are converts to Catholcism, which means we made a choice to become Catholic. We prayed, we researched the word of God, we prayed some more, we read early church history, writings of other coverts, etc, to come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is right for us.

So, its a little annoying to have a non-Catholic who just came from church or a revival tell us that we are interpreting the bible wrong, we're lost, we're going to hell, etc.

Plus, we have to watch as folks who know little about the Catholic faith disect it like a lab rat, hear all the "expert comments" and then be told that we need to "consider we appearance?!?! Please.

Originally posted by Greeter
On behalf of the many Protestants that don't hold anything against the Catholic Church (and are saddened by what it is now going through), We are sorry for those who have taken advantage of the situation to now jump on Catholics. One percent of the priests, who need a millstone, are making things difficult for the other 99 percent who do a great job and serve the Lord faithfully.

Thanks, that was nice of you to says, sincerely.

 

[Caedmon]

How can you not view the Bible as a literary work? Or is the word "work" making you squeamish? Are you telling me that the Bible doesn't contain sections of prose and poetry? Are you telling me that there is NO genre in the Bible whatsoever? The mere fact that there are monologues and dialogues should hint at "literature".

As far as I'm concerned, I believe that Genesis 1-11 is most likely mythological. If you think I'm not a Christian for believing that, then fine. I'm a Calvinist, and even some of my Reformed brethren disagree with me on this issue. That's fine too. But don't go trying to tell other people that they're not a Christian because they don't take a completely literal view of the Bible. And speaking of complete literal interpretations, how do you interpret John 6:55?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

We might as well move this into the catholic/proestant jewsih meeting place. This is NOT at all what I expected from a protestand conversation.
Why can some of you PM each other and fill each other in on the historyof the christian forums??
*gels waits for the locksmith to come in and lock this post up*

 

[WayneH]

humble... I'll take your post as being for Me... and I never said it didn't comprise prose or poetry - what I meant was some people say thats all it is - not literal - and good for them... I was telling greeter I agreed with him and look at the Bible as literal words handed down BY GOD not as a BOOK to be used for a literary class only.. you want to view the Bible as work of literary genius - go ahead... I never said a person WASN'T a Christian for thinking that way - becasue if that were true - half the people here wouldn't be christian.. so think what you want and believe what you want... its not between you and me - its between you and God..

 

[Greeter]

Thank You Gel.

Thank You Vow for the apology, and I do understand your perspective.

Originally posted by KC Catholic

No one here has ever made the claims that Catholics, priests or the laypeople are perfect.

Actually my point was for both sides of the coin. I was just proving that mistakes will be made by people on both sides.

Take a look in there ...there are several Protestant/Catholics discussions going on right now. Have I closed any of them down?

That is just it. When I first went into that forum and read the post about non Catholics posting there, it appeared as a big "No Trespassing" Sign. Being raised in the South I take those seriously (especially when they have the note "Forget the dog, beware of owner") and promptly left.

On a side note , if you had closed them down would I know of it? Wouldn't you closing one down cause it to be removed from active causing me to miss it? The only way I can tell when messages have been deleted is when the numbers jump.

Well..being a former Protestant myself - the facts about what Martin Luther and others did during the Reformation made me concerned enough to do the research and eventually become Catholic.

The claims Protestants have about Catholics and "man-made traditions" is very ironic since the majority of the beliefs that form the Protestant movement were created by men who decided they knew better than the Holy Spirit and the Church.

I personally am not lashing out at anyone. Like I said above, I am a convert, many of the folks posting here are converts to Catholcism, which means we made a choice to become Catholic. We prayed, we researched the word of God, we prayed some more, we read early church history, writings of other coverts, etc, to come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is right for us.

Wow, opposite concept for me. I was raised Catholic. I attended Catholic school for most of my life and even seriously considered becoming a Priest. It was because of beliefs of the Protestant movement and the movings of the Holy Spirit that I became Saved and converted.

So, its a little annoying to have a non-Catholic who just came from church or a revival tell us that we are interpreting the bible wrong, we're lost, we're going to hell, etc.

I can appreciate that.

Plus, we have to watch as folks who know little about the Catholic faith disect it like a lab rat, hear all the "expert comments" and then be told that we need to "consider we appearance?!?! Please.

*Sigh*

If you are not conscious of the image you project you may make enemies out of people who are not your enemy. It is difficult to offer your hand in friendship when the other person has his sword drawn.

 

[Wolseley]

I am sorry that you feel abused by Protestants and have had rough things happen to you. It appears you are now lashing out at all Protestants, as if you have a chip on your shoulder. Not all Protestants are out to get Catholics.

Greeter, just as an educational exercise, I'd ask you to click on this link and peruse several pages of the forum that appears:

http://rr-bb.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=18

When you're done, maybe you'll understand a little bit better why Catholics seem to be hypersensitive whenever they feel (rightly or wrongly) that their Faith is under criticism or attack.

Most of us have had to put up with that type of stuff of the vast preponderance of Internet bulletin boards for years. A goodly number of us came from the infamous Tyndale Publishing board called "Left Behind", which is every bit the swamp that the link above is.

That's what we had to put up with every day. Every day. Every day. Every day.

Name me another religious group that has to do that every day, outside of possibly the Mormons. Mainstream Protestants don't, and that's for sure. Not even rattlesnake-handling, strychnine-drinking Fundamentalists don't.

So maybe now you have a better understanding of why we are so touchy. We try to work on it, but a goodly part of it has to do with the fact that we don't want this board to end up like those other boards: deluged under a tidal wave of anti-Catholic lies, misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and twistings.

On behalf of the many Protestants that don't hold anything against the Catholic Church (and are saddened by what it is now going through), We are sorry for those who have taken advantage of the situation to now jump on Catholics. One percent of the priests, who need a millstone, are making things difficult for the other 99 percent who do a great job and serve the Lord faithfully.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Greeter
That is just it. When I first went into that forum and read the post about non Catholics posting there, it appeared as a big "No Trespassing" Sign. Being raised in the South I take those seriously (especially when they have the note "Forget the dog, beware of owner") and promptly left.

Maybe I can review the wording of the post. It was created at a time the entire board was under attack from trolls and the post may appear very recative - my apologies.

Originally posted by Greeter
On a side note , if you had closed them down would I know of it? Wouldn't you closing one down cause it to be removed from active causing me to miss it? The only way I can tell when messages have been deleted is when the numbers jump.

If they were locked I usually put an explanation in the thread and leave it where everyone could see why the thread was closed before moving it to archive.

Originally posted by Greeter
Wow, opposite concept for me. I was raised Catholic. I attended Catholic school for most of my life and even seriously considered becoming a Priest. It was because of beliefs of the Protestant movement and the movings of the Holy Spirit that I became Saved and converted.

I'm glad that you found the spirituality that was lacking in your parish.

Originally posted by Greeter
If you are not conscious of the image you project you may make enemies out of people who are not your enemy. It is difficult to offer your hand in friendship when the other person has his sword drawn.

I really think you are taking me the wrong way. By the very nature of my signature "KC Catholic" I can tell you some folks are automatically defensive. That's why I chose the name - so they'd know who they are talking to and maybe they'd think about their approach to me.

You are new here and I'll grant you that...but I am a pretty fair and easy-going guy. When doing my duty as Sr. Administrator I do the best I can to be neutral and to look out for all points of view. But I am human not a machine.

When I am posting as Joe Catholic, I am passionate about my faith. If that presents a negative view in your mind, I'm sorry, but we Catholics are put under the microscope constantly and if you look around - Protestants are not usually disected in the manner in which our teachings are scrutinized.

A little defensive, yeah. Being a former Catholic you should know better than anyone what a Catholic faces daily.

 

[Greeter]

Originally posted by Wolseley


http://rr-bb.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=18

OUCH

Name me another religious group that has to do that every day, outside of possibly the Mormons. Mainstream Protestants don't, and that's for sure. Not even rattlesnake-handling, strychnine-drinking Fundamentalists don't.

How about the Jews? (Looking out towards Israel)

So maybe now you have a better understanding of why we are so touchy. We try to work on it, but a goodly part of it has to do with the fact that we don't want this board to end up like those other boards: deluged under a tidal wave of anti-Catholic lies, misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and twistings.

I do have a better understanding now. However, based on posts by you, KC Catholic, and Vow, and the appearances within those posts of a dark agenda, you almost made me want to take up swords against you.

Have you been wronged? Obviously, but be careful how you go about correcting it. You may create what you most fear.

I don't want someone else to make the mistake I almost made, based on a misinterpretation of your motives, and cause you further unwarranted harm.

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Greeter
I do have a better understanding now. However, based on posts by you, KC Catholic, and Vow, and the appearances within those posts of a dark agenda, you almost made me want to take up swords against you.

Why is it the Catholics always have the "dark agenda"? We stand in the light, the very same light of our risen lord that you stand.

Originally posted by Greeter
Have you been wronged? Obviously, but be careful how you go about correcting it. You may create what you most fear.

I don't feel I've been "wronged"~ just falsely accused of worshiping Mary, worshiping idols, praying to dead people, rejecting the free gift of Christ saving grace, thinking I have to "work" for my salvation...should I go on?

You were once Catholic, do you not know what I am talking about?

Originally posted by Greeter
I don't want someone else to make the mistake I almost made, based on a misinterpretation of your motives, and cause you further unwarranted harm.

What about your motives? You were presumptuous in your inital evaluation of the Catholics posting here and still talk in a condesending manner after we've explained ourselves to you.

 

[Greeter]

Originally posted by KC Catholic

Maybe I can review the wording of the post. It was created at a time the entire board was under attack from trolls and the post may appear very recative - my apologies.

Hey, Thank You for the consideration of changing it.

I really think you are taking me the wrong way.

Thank You for clearing that up. Thanks to Wolseley, Vow, and now you, I understand things better now, as well as your intentions.

A little defensive, yeah. Being a former Catholic you should know better than anyone what a Catholic faces daily.

Not nearly as much as you all apparently. Especially nothing like the link above(at least not online).

 

[VOW]

To Greeter:

I'm still flinching a bit at your admonishment to me that this was a CHRISTIAN FORUM, and that only CHRISTIANS should post here.

And all I did was say that SOME of the stories in the Bible are myths...and that every time I mentioned that in the past, I got hosed by the Bible literalists.

MY concern, my reason for posting here, is that I'm willing to bet most non-Catholic Christians who get in line behind Martin Luther and support his editing of the Old Testament have never even READ the Deuterocanonical books. To see them dismissed out of hand, because they weren't written in Hebrew, because they supposedly were written after a certain point in time, because they are supposedly myths, because they are supposedly not accepted by the Jews.... wouldn't a person be interested in deciding for him/herself as to the VALUE of them?

There has been an increased interest in "hidden" books of Gospel that the Roman Catholic Church "supposedly" has been keeping secret because they would destroy the foundation of Catholicism. Hey, I wanted to see for MYSELF what all the fuss was about. I READ the Gospel of Thomas. I READ the "missing" chapters to the Gospel of Mark. And I made the decision, FOR MYSELF, that the Early Church Fathers knew exactly what they were doing in axing that rubbish!

My suggestion is simply that: read for yourself the Book of Wisdom, or of Sirach. Enjoy the love story in Tobit. I was touched by the story of Susanna in the Deuterocanonical chapters of Daniel. Who on earth has NEVER been in a similar position as Susanna? It was nice to see true justice prevail!

As someone who has read both Tobit and the "Gospel of Thomas" I'll tell you this: Tobit was certainly more faith-promoting than Thomas!

And ANYTHING faith-promoting can't be bad!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Greeter]

It takes me some time to put together my thoughts and as such the previous was posted before I posted. In the future I will try to review the other posts being made so as to not miss something pertinent.
I also don't type that fast and having to put things in quotes properly requires further thinking and often editing afterwards.

Originally posted by KC Catholic

Why is it the Catholics always have the "dark agenda"? We stand in the light, the very same light of our risen lord that you stand.

Sorry, that must not have come out right. I am playing catchup trying to keep up with you all and am falling behind and making further mistakes. I meant that it appeared as if you three had a dark agenda of tearing down the Protestant beliefs. I understand your intentions now, I didn't then, I am sorry for it.

You were once Catholic, do you not know what I am talking about?

As mentioned before, I didn't have to deal with it online, only in real space(as opposed to online/cyber space). I have had my dealings but not to the extremes you all have.

What about your motives? You were presumptuous in your inital evaluation of the Catholics posting here and still talk in a condesending manner after we've explained ourselves to you.

Yes I was presumptious and mistook your intentions. I am sorry for that.

(Having now read through the thread while writing this)
Vow:
The title of the thread appearing at the top of the group is "Welcome! This forum is for Christians Only!". I wasn't saying your weren't Christian, I was referring you to the thread as, at the time I thought, you didn't fit the tenets of what was mentioned within. I was also under the impression that this group and the Catholic group was primarily for those who believed likewise to the groups headings. I am sorry for being wrong in both of those concepts.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

The apocrypha was NOT canon, never was, never will be inspiried. As I have stated time and times before.
Matin Luther didn't edit the OT.

If you want to believe that fine go about your merry way and belive that but PLEASE stop telling protestants that they way they believe is EDITED! We know what we belive and we are proud and STAND FIRM on the infallible WORD of God. It is every thing we need and NOTHING more!
GEL

 

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL..GEL..you are fiesty...

 

[Wolseley]

The apocrypha was NOT canon, never was, never will be inspiried.

The transcripts of the Council of Hippo in 393 AD disagree with you.

As I have stated time and times before.
Matin Luther didn't edit the OT.

And there, I'll disagree with you, as will plenty of other Catholics, Orthodox, and even quite a few Protestants.

If you want to believe that fine go about your merry way and belive that but PLEASE stop telling protestants that they way they believe is EDITED!

We never said anything about the way you believe being "edited", GEL. What we said was, thanks to Luther, Protestant Bibles have seven fewer books than Catholic Bibles. Catholic Bibles have two fewer books than Orthodox Bibles. So what? It's not a salvational issue. Besides, I'm reasonably certain that you haven't been told as many times that your 66-book Bible is edited as I have been told that I worship Mary, that Purgatory is a figment of my imagination, that the Pope is the Antichrist, that celibacy is a doctrine of demons, and all the rest of the constant bull manure I hear on a fairly consistent basis.

Take a chill pill, Phil.

We know what we belive and we are proud and STAND FIRM on the infallible WORD of God.

So do we. The written Word of God, and the unwritten Word of God.

LOL..GEL..you are fiesty...

Unca Wols is feeling a little feisty today, hisself.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

ROFL..

/me finds this whole conversation extremely amusing...and looks for it to be continued

 

[Greeter]

Hmm, apparently between 4:10pm and 4:15pm KC Catholic and Vow had a meeting and decided to change their position on everything(wish I was aware of it though). I was under the impression that things were being smoothed out and both sides could understand where the other was coming from. You can probably imagine my surprise when I read the following. I will say this, KC Catholic and Vow know how to knock someone off balance. I didn't know what hit me upon reading this. I missed the opportunity but should have used the icon at that point.

Originally posted by KC Catholic

What about your motives? You were presumptuous in your inital evaluation of the Catholics posting here and still talk in a condesending manner after we've explained ourselves to you.

My motives huh? Well let's see. I read through a couple posts by some Catholics and the post at the top of the Catholic's area. I saw the entries about Martin Luther editing the Bible and they appeared as some sort of "dig" against Protestants(Non-Denominational/Reformed/etc).

I chose an area, namely this one, to post in thinking it would be among people who believed exactly the same tenets as I do as set forth within the opening announcement on the forum so I could get a sense as to what was going on with like minded individuals. I wanted to find out what the concept was about, and what the motives were of those posting it if possible as it appeared as a threat to Protestant beliefs.

Obviously I made a mistake in thinking this area was for those who believed in the same things and thus I wouldn't have to worry about a debate on the issue. Enter surprise number one that you all helped to set the record straight on.

Through the thread I learned where the Catholics were coming from, what they have been through, and that in your words you mean no harm to the Protestants with the concept.

At that point I just wanted to apologize for my misconceptions and point out that the Catholics need to be more careful with the concept as others could easily make the mistakes I have in misinterpreting the Catholics reasonings for the Martin Luther remarks.

Then I got hit by a Mack truck.

KC Catholic: As for your bombshell I hope this clears things up for you on my motives. About the condescending remark, I just want to make sure you understand my point of view(yes I understand yours now). You mentioned before that I seem to be taking you the wrong way and now you seem to be taking me the wrong way.

Vow: I had hoped I cleared up the misconception on you being a Christian back in post number 41. Hopefully the more recent post clears this up. I was not saying that you were not a Christian. I was just trying to refer you to a string with a message in it.

At this point the ball is in the Catholics court. I have already apologized for my misconceptions and mistakes, and hope all is taken care of (but I have been wrong before) as both sides now understand each other.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

I personally have to say this..I don't see all this abuse that Catholics are taking..The Catholic Church basically runs things..not Protestants..When the Pope speaks people listen and he gets a live telecast sometimes..the Catholic Church is one of the most rich and powerful churches in the world so I don't see how a church so rich and so powerful can have all these persecutions against it. People that aren't even Catholic go visit the Vatican and fall all over themselves just to kiss the Pope's ring..how many times has someone been on tv shown kissing Billy Graham's ring ??????

Some Catholics do as much slamming as some Protestants do..people on both sides do and have done their dirt. So it's not like Protestants are in it alone...and for whatever reason people believe that it really matters how much or how little someone persecutes someone else..the point is : it happens from BOTH.

So let's not be blinded and act like we have these poor, defensely Catholics that are being made to hide inside their homes all day and are not allowed to profess their faith..because we all know that is not true..Go to a big city and you have about a gillion Catholic churches on every other corner..so I don't get the "Oh we are a dying faith attitude.." Because Catholicsm is thriving just like Protestanism is...

Missy

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Woesly..thats NIce that you have your opinion, but it is just that..AN opinion. I think everyone on this board has heard your opinion and the other catholics opinion about martin luther and the apocrypha. If you want us to respect your beliefs in your forums, I expect the same in our little haven. Save the debates for the meeting forum..thats what its for!
And Missy, I do have to agree with you. We are ALL guilt of slamming each other and we have all felt upset by someones comments. As for the licking wounds and the other comments about how catholics are so mistreated,
*GEL starts playing the violin*
heheh
GEL

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Greeter
I was under the impression that things were being smoothed out and both sides could understand where the other was coming from. You can probably imagine my surprise when I read the following. I will say this, KC Catholic and Vow know how to knock someone off balance. I didn't know what hit me upon reading this. I missed the opportunity but should have used the icon at that point.

No you identified the problem earlier - we were simply missing each other in our posting. So, our conversation became disjointed.

I am truly sorry to you if I came off strong, angry or defensive. Sincerely - if I offended anyone else or hurt their feelings - I apologize.

And I accept your apology as well. It's a new day, time for a fresh start for everyone.

I saw the entries about Martin Luther editing the Bible and they appeared as some sort of "dig" against Protestants(Non-Denominational/Reformed/etc).

I can see that and my thought would be that rather than a "dig" at Protestantism - it's an honest and valid question that needs addressing.

Originally posted by Greeter
I chose an area, namely this one, to post in thinking it would be among people who believed exactly the same tenets as I do as set forth within the opening announcement on the forum so I could get a sense as to what was going on with like minded individuals.

Well, "One Bread" was meant to be the same way, but my separated bretheren have always been welcomed in that forum. We answer their questions and discuss beliefs.

We don't use it as a place to bang on our separated bretherns beliefs, like this forum is quickly becoming - note GELS comment above as proof.

Originally posted by Greeter
Through the thread I learned where the Catholics were coming from, what they have been through, and that in your words you mean no harm to the Protestants with the concept.

That's right.

Originally posted by Greeter
At that point I just wanted to apologize for my misconceptions and point out that the Catholics need to be more careful with the concept as others could easily make the mistakes I have in misinterpreting the Catholics reasonings for the Martin Luther remarks.

Thanks and we'll do our best and we expect the same from you all as well.