Mariolatry?

[BNR32FAN]

If it's a prayer, who do you think people pray to--humans? The only human I could justify praying to is Jesus himself!

But that's not what's happening here. You're praying *to* Mary in order to ask her to intercede for us. Praying *to her* is something reserved for God alone.

Under the Law, Israel was forbidden from engaging in necromancy. King Saul was soundly condemned for trying to contact the Prophet Samuel, not just because he used a witch, but more because both the witch and contacting the dead are forms of forbidden occultism!

That's pure rationalization. Mary was Mother of Jesus, but she was not a queen mother, whether mother of an earthly king or mother of a heavenly king. And she certainly was not a "Queen of Heaven!"

If she was "queen," what realm was she queen over? Jesus did not have an earthly Kingdom, since Israel was abandoning God's Kingdom. And Jesus, as heavenly King, was king by virtue of his Deity, and not by his earthly heritage. Mary had no business in that!

I sometimes speak to my dead parents. Sometimes out loud when I’m by myself, sometimes when there are others around I might think to myself in my head and say something to them like I miss you guys, I wish you were here, things of that nature. I’m not worshipping them, not conjuring any spirits or consulting with the dead. Maybe they hear me, maybe they don’t but that’s irrelevant because it’s not forbidden in the scriptures. So whether or not the saints can actually hear prayers is irrelevant to whether or not it is a sin since it’s not forbidden.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have zero fear of God in declaring that Mary was a sinner just like any of us. She was born of a fallen race--the human race. She was born with a Sin Nature, just as Paul said, "all have sinned."

So you should fear accusing me of misrepresenting the Apostle Paul. You will have to sleep well at night with your false Catholic beliefs.

Why did your previous post express concern about Christian fellowship while your posts appear to deliberately use harsh language in reference to my supposed beliefs?

 

[RandyPNW]

Why did your previous post express concern about Christian fellowship while your posts appear to deliberately use harsh language in reference to my supposed beliefs?

In all honesty, you seem like a very nice person. But when it comes to disagreement with your fellowship, you seem unable to disagree on particular points of theology, which you view as a threat to your fellowship.

Luther had that problem too. He was a Catholic, and yet as a Catholic theologian it was his job to ensure that the Scriptures were being properly ministered to the people. When his questions threatened the Pope and Catholic traditions, his life was threatened--not the other way around.

I'd dearly love to say only things that you like, but I've committed to God to be always truthful, to Him and to myself. Don't let our disagreements poison the atmosphere in which we both live. We both enjoy the presence of the Lord. We can built on that, while disagreeing on various things.

 

[RandyPNW]

I sometimes speak to my dead parents. Sometimes out loud when I’m by myself, sometimes when there are others around I might think to myself in my head and say something to them like I miss you guys, I wish you were here, things of that nature. I’m not worshipping them, not conjuring any spirits or consulting with the dead. Maybe they hear me, maybe they don’t but that’s irrelevant because it’s not forbidden in the scriptures. So whether or not the saints can actually hear prayers is irrelevant to whether or not it is a sin since it’s not forbidden.

In that case I'm much less concerned. I have a personal friend whose wife died in his arms, and he may think he didn't do enough to save her. He speaks to her every night--at least he used to. And he was quite honest about it. I let it go......

 

[RandyPNW]

Obviously people pray to humans otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

What's the point? If people pray to dead humans, it's wrong.

First of all I’m not Catholic nor have I ever been. Furthermore I’ve never prayed to Mary or any of the saints in my entire life. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that prayer is reserved for God alone that’s just coming from your own imagination.

No, that's the definition of prayer. Perhaps you think Dictionaries also just go by their imagination?

And your comparison to necromancy is not even close to being relevant because God forbids us to seek council with dead spirits thru the means of an oracle.

You are adding to what was said. Both would be wrong. A person can consult with the dead without use of an "oracle."

Deut 18.10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Any of these situations is forbidden. The medium is condemned precisely because he "consults the dead."

Nobody is seeking council by asking a saint to speak to God on their behalf.

That's untrue. Prayer is made by Catholics to Mary and various saints in order to have them speak to God on their behalf. At least that's what I've heard. Why do you think an intercessor is even being used?

The term “seek council” means to acquire information, it refers to a two way conversation thru the use of magic which is forbidden. Nobody’s using any magic or seeking information when asking a Saint to speak to God on their behalf.

It's not just magic that is being forbidden. It is "consulting the dead," which is speaking with the dead.

Is this somehow supposed to mean that it is forbidden to call her queen of heaven?

Yes, you don't call someone "queen of heaven" when she is not entitled to such a title. What does that even mean??

Catholics don’t teach that Mary is ruling heaven.

It sounds as if they think she is ruling over the earth with Jesus. But I don't know? She didn't rule with Jesus while he was on earth. And she won't rule with him while he is in heaven in the sense of lording it over humanity.

I understand having problems with the term but if you’re going to refute it you must refute it in the context that they are teaching it, not apply different meanings to it that they’re not teaching it to mean because then you’re only refuting your own imagination instead of what they’re actually teaching.

You don't appear to have the facts.

 

[Grip Docility]

Attempt at reconciliation, void of personal beliefs expressed, but anchored to scripture.

Conflict that still exists:

Catholics, Orthodoxy and most Lutherans believe that Mary was without Sin​

​

Protestants believe that Mary was with Sin​

​

Possible reconciliation available: The Scriptures never specifically declare Mary to have had sin or to have been without sin. This allows for both parties to find respect for each others stances and avoid discussion over that particular topic, while respecting that each stance has root in seeking to exalt Jesus Christ who is the fruit of Mary's Womb.​

​

It goes without saying that scripture is emphatic that Mary is indeed the God Bearer, as the Incarnation is indeed the Spiritual work of God the Holy Spirit by Will of God the Father, to knit the Pre-Incarnate Son to the very Biological DNA of Mary. This resulted in the Birth of God the Son, Who is the ONLY Begotten Son of God, that whosoever shall believe in HIM, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.​

​

@The Liturgist; The purpose of these two posts isn't to ask anyone to compromise conviction or sacred belief, but an attempt to identify the schism of the matter, while identifying possible ways to establish peace between brethren. Please be brutal with me if this is accurate speech and viable, or simply too much to ask of anyone. I know you are excellent at all of this and desire your well studied feedback.

 

[d taylor]

I do too. I was somewhat forced into the difficult study of the Trinity way back in the 1970s, when I had moved to California and joined the "Local Church" cult--some outside of the group today no longer consider it a "cult."

But at the time it promoted a kind of modalistic view of the 3 Persons of the Trinity. Christian Research Institute had sponsored a tract on them, exposing their beliefs as modalistic and heretical, and I tried to understand the difficulties involved. What a headache!

Anyway, after extricating myself from the group I over a period of time acquired a working knowledge of the subject, but found that I could never adopt an explanation and verbiage that can please everybody. But I think it's a good exercise.

I find the early orthodox formulations of the Trinity to be brilliant and acceptable, so that I try to remain as close to these formulations as possible. They work well to discredit new heretical formulations that attempt to reduce the Deity of Christ or the distinctions among the members of the Trinity.

3 distinct Persons and 1 shared Divine Substance. Christ fully human and fully Divine.

A big problem I had initially was in explaining the difference between the Father and the Spirit, because neither had a created human nature like the Son by which to distinguish them as Persons. I found that the Father is used as a Person of God who existed before all creation and as the origin of all creation, whereas the Spirit is used as God's Person moving within the created universe. So there's that!

-
​

I will say Jesus was the only human to pick who His mother was going to be.

 

[Grip Docility]

Attempt at reconciliation, void of personal beliefs expressed, but anchored to scripture.

Conflict that still exists:​

Catholics, Orthodoxy and most Lutherans believe that petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven to Pray for them is identical to asking living brethren to pray for them, via Prayer Requests, though the Living Saints in Heaven have a far more direct line.​

Protestants believe that petitioning the brethren that are still alive in their mortal coils and sainted sinners, awaiting to cross over through death is acceptable, while the entire matter of petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven is a very difficult matter for protestants, because they argue and infight over the state of the dead via the conflicting doctrines of (The immortal soul vs Christian Mortalism).​

Possible reconciliation available: The Catholic act of making Prayer requests to the Saints in Heaven is identical to the Protestant act of making prayer requests to brethren on earth, as Catholics have faith that the Saints are Alive in and through Jesus Christ in Heaven. The possible reconciliation is in the matter that the state of the dead was never a contentious bone until the Protest against the Mother Physical Church which has led to over 30,000 arguing offspring. Grace could be given from each side on the complex doctrines about "The state of the dead" that give compassion to one another's views as matters of chosen doctrine and personal conviction. This could make matters respectful of one another's similarities, versus one another's differences. Prayer requests are a common practice among the two arguing factions.​

​

@The Liturgist; The purpose of these two posts isn't to ask anyone to compromise conviction or sacred belief, but an attempt to identify the schism of the matter, while identifying possible ways to establish peace between brethren. Please be brutal with me if this is accurate speech and viable, or simply too much to ask of anyone. I know you are excellent at all of this and desire your well studied feedback.

 

[RandyPNW]

Attempt at reconciliation, void of personal beliefs expressed, but anchored to scripture.

Conflict that still exists:​

Catholics, Orthodoxy and most Lutherans believe that petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven to Pray for them is identical to asking living brethren to pray for them, via Prayer Requests, though the Living Saints in Heaven have a far more direct line.​

I have no clue what you're trying to say here, as it sounds terribly untrue? I was raised Lutheran and have never heard that Lutherans equate Catholic prayers to dead saints as equal to Lutheran request for prayers from living saints. It appears that your indentations are an attempt at giving some legitimacy to this statement, even though it does not appear to be a quotation. Please explain?

 

[Grip Docility]

I have no clue what you're trying to say here, as it sounds terribly untrue? I was raised Lutheran and have never heard that Lutherans equate Catholic prayers to dead saints as equal to Lutheran request for prayers from living saints. It appears that your indentations are an attempt at giving some legitimacy to this statement, even though it does not appear to be a quotation. Please explain?

Catholics, Orthodoxy and most Lutherans believe that petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven to Pray for them​

Notice that I didn’t say “all” Lutherans, but instead said “Most”?

Lutherans are divided on the state of the dead.

Some believe in the Immortality of the Soul, while Others believe in Christian Mortalism.

Which one do you tend to believe?

 

[dzheremi]

All saints are living saints. "Dead saints" aren't a thing. To be a saint is to be alive in Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

Notice that I didn’t say “all” Lutherans, but instead said “Most”?

Did you hear what I said? I said, or mean to say, that I've *never* heard Lutherans make this supposed equation between Catholic praying to the dead saints and Lutheran asking living saints for prayer.

Lutherans are divided on the state of the dead.

This has no bearing on the matter you were speaking to.

Some believe in the Immortality of the Soul, while Others believe in Christian Mortalism.

Which one do you tend to believe?

I believe human souls are immortal. But the Bible speaks of an immortalization process called "glorification," which is different from simple eternity of the soul. All human souls are eternal, but not all human souls will put on what are called "immortal bodies in the likeness of Christ."

Eternal Death does not equate to the extinction of a lost soul. Rather, it refers to eternal separation from close proximity to God and His blessedness. I don't know what that translates into, nor do I care to know up close. But I should think for those who love God it is the most terrorizing feature of Outer Darkness, the punishment that is to be eternally inflicted upon the lost.

So "Death" does not mean extinction, nor the annihilation of the soul. Rather, it refers to eternal separation from God's blessed presence, and the loss of a place in God's holy city, the New Jerusalem. The lost will assume new eternal bodies that are not defined as "immortal" simply because they are disunited from the presence of God, which is a form of death.

 

[Grip Docility]

Did you hear what I said? I said, or mean to say, that I've *never* heard Lutherans make this supposed equation between Catholic praying to the dead saints and Lutheran asking living saints for prayer.

I did. I am attempting to identify a path for peace between two differing views. In the mind of each person with a view, each believes their view to be the correct one. The post is made to identify the differing views and find possible reconciliation between the two views, on the matter. My purpose was to address the possibility of peace.

This has no bearing on the matter you were speaking to.

"Lutherans are divided on the state of the dead." IMO, it does. A Lutheran's experience as a Lutheran is impacted by this. My suggestion is that the concept of Saints not ever dying and being counted as alive in Heaven is impacted by the division that is at the core of the entire discussion, within Lutheranism.

I believe human souls are immortal. But the Bible speaks of an immortalization process called "glorification," which is different from simple eternity of the soul. All human souls are eternal, but not all human souls will put on what are called "immortal bodies in the likeness of Christ."

I'm shifting into understanding mode. So, you differentiate the state of the Saint dwelling in Heaven, from their state after Jesus returns?

Eternal Death does not equate to the extinction of a lost soul.

You don't believe in annihilation. This is the more Orthodox approach to the topic.

Rather, it refers to eternal separation from close proximity to God and His blessedness.

You are speaking about those that are unbelieving, as I understand you.

I don't know what that translates into, nor do I care to know up close.

The idea of being denied access to God is indeed a horrible thought.

But I should think for those who love God it is the most terrorizing feature of Outer Darkness, the punishment that is to be eternally inflicted upon the lost.

That is a painful concept, for certain.

So "Death" does not mean extinction, nor the annihilation of the soul.

I appreciate the time you've taken to share your belief on this.

Rather, it refers to eternal separation from God's blessed presence, and the loss of a place in God's holy city, the New Jerusalem.

Do you believe that those that pass from this earth and are believers go immediately to Jesus, in Heaven?

The lost will assume new eternal bodies that are not defined as "immortal" simply because they are disunited from the presence of God, which is a form of death.

I appreciate your sharing this. What of the Saints in Heaven? Do you count them Dead or Alive?

 

[RandyPNW]

I did. I am attempting to identify a path for peace between two differing views. In the mind of each person with a view, each believes their view to be the correct one. The post is made to identify the differing views and find possible reconciliation between the two views, on the matter. My purpose was to address the possibility of peace.

Well, your motive is good, undoubtedly. However you're being a little impractical, I think. Not all will accept *your formulation* for "peace" in each situation.

And this is inevitable since we are only a piece of the puzzle. Christ himself is the unblemished source of peace, and even he cannot produce peace in situations where some will harden their hearts in pride and not even listen to common sense out of partiality and self interest.

That being said I'm all for your interest in trying to be fair to both sides of an issue. But there is not always a middle ground that can appeal to both sides of a disagreement. Some will have to soften their attitude and listen, objectively, to things they've been conditioned to think is wrong.

I believe in stating truth, and doing so with the right spirit, letting the chips fall where they may. Good people will ultimately see your heart. Others will try to find in you the worst criminal they can find, based on the smallest defect. I lose no sleep over such people!

"Lutherans are divided on the state of the dead." IMO, it does. A Lutheran's experience as a Lutheran is impacted by this. My suggestion is that the concept of Saints not ever dying and being counted as alive in Heaven is impacted by the division that is at the core of the entire discussion, within Lutheranism.

I'm shifting into understanding mode. So, you differentiate the state of the Saint dwelling in Heaven, from their state after Jesus returns?

I grew up in Lutheranism of a certain kind, and never once discussed this subject. We spent most time on the Bible overall, viewed from a Protestant view of Grace. It was all about trusting Christ to cover our sins for Salvation.

You don't believe in annihilation. This is the more Orthodox approach to the topic.

You are speaking about those that are unbelieving, as I understand you.

The idea of being denied access to God is indeed a horrible thought.

That is a painful concept, for certain.

I appreciate the time you've taken to share your belief on this.

Do you believe that those that pass from this earth and are believers go immediately to Jesus, in Heaven?

I appreciate your sharing this. What of the Saints in Heaven? Do you count them Dead or Alive?

Saints appropriate Eternal Life in this mortal life, and do not lose it when they go to Heaven. So they remain "alive," and are not "dead." And yes, we go straight to God in Heaven when we, as saints, die. I do not personally believe in "Soul Sleep."

Again, as a Lutheran we were more interested in Faith in God than in all of the controversies. When I 1st raised the issue of controversy among different perspectives, such as on the Holy Spirit (late adolescence), my pastor gave me a book called "Love, Joy, and Peace." In other words, he counseled keeping my peace in the face of controversy among Christians.

It may be a kind of "cop out," but I respect it to some degree. We should not be afraid to face various issues, but we always need to do it in the right spirit.

 

[concretecamper]

When God the Father chose to reveal Himself as God the Son

This statement is Heresy

 

[Jipsah]

​

Why do you elevate Mary to a god

We don't; the charge is false, however oft repeated, and however much some people would like to believe it. It's general "them Bad Catholics".." rubbish peddled by people who don't like Catholics. I grew up with that stuff, and later discovered that I'd been taught a load of crud by people who didn't know any better.

, do you pray to her.

I ask her to pray for me. I ask old Mrs. Kim and Pastor Choi to pray fo me as well, as well as other people who I know and trust. "Oh", you say, "Mary can't hear you." Maybe, but I've found over the years that I can't place much trust in what what a lot of folks believe to biblical truth that turns out just not to be so. And if in fact the Mother of God can't hear me, wel, no harm, no foul. asking hasn't hurt a thing.

So there was not just one Person without sin but actually two.

I thought that by your belief there were actually none, since you don't believe that our Lord Christ is actually God Incarnate.

By the way, this is where you're supposed to tell me that Protestants Can Pray Directly To God", right? Yeah, that's true. So do all the various varieties of Catholics, and we do, all the time. We pray the Lord's Prayer, the Glory Be, the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy om me, a sinner"), and many other familiar prayers..

And yes, we also pray to God Himself, in our own words, as the Spirit leads us, to ask His Salvation, and His blessing, and His aid, and His mercy , and everything else that fallen humanity needs.

Yeah, we pray directly to Him, all the time. I know y'all know that as well, but you just like saying "well we don't have to go through channels, we can pray to God Himself. Little spiritual one-upsmanship, right?

But yeah, ge also get to ask departed saints, who are absent from the body but present with the Lord, to pray for us, just as we do saints who are still alive amongst us. Y'all don't get to do that,because it Just Ain't Allowed, right?

​

 

[RandyPNW]

This statement is Heresy

"When God the Father chose to reveal Himself as God the Son." Yes, I should've said "when God the Father chose to reveal Himself *in* God the Son." Thank you.

Was God revealed in the Son? Yes. Did Jesus say that when others saw him they saw the Father? Yes. They were not seeing the Father in the form of the Father, but only in His revelation via the Son. The Father cannot be seen in human form except He can be seen via His Word, or via the Son.
.
John 1.18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 14.9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-

​

I like to enter into discussions like this to see really what people who do not believe as i do, believe and also to better study my position and hopefully grow in the process.

It’s good to evaluate different perspectives of the scriptures, it’s helped me to learn a lot.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Did Jesus get His divine nature from Mary.

My mistake I thought you were here to learn but evidently you’re just here to troll Catholics. Why ask questions that you already know the answer to and you know that they don’t actually teach? What you’re doing is just making false accusations against them, bearing false witness.

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, gimme a sanity check here. The folks that I'm seeing who take exception to referring to the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of God. seem to also take exception to saying "Jesus is God". Is that just me, or what?

It’s just typical anti Catholic propaganda from people who aren’t interested in learning what the church actually teaches on the subject. If you’re going to refute a doctrine or teaching of a particular denomination you have to make sure that it’s what they actually teach otherwise you’re only refuting your own imagination. I wouldn’t even pay any attention to him because he’s not refuting Catholic theology he’s refuting his own imagination.