Mariolatry?

[Jipsah]

I'm sorry, was this diagram an EP notion?

View attachment 352912

Apparently not, since EPs seem to consistently argue that The Son is a hybrid God-Man, or a part or God, or a subordinate God, or just about any other almost-god thing they can think up to keep from saying that the Blessed Virgin is the is the God Bearer, the Mother of God.

But hey, if you can figure out a way to use that diagram without accepting that the BVM is the Mother of the Son of God, Who according your very own diagram Is God. I'm keen to hear it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Apparently not, since EPs seem to consistently argue that The Son is a hybrid God-Man, or a part or God, or a subordinate God, or just about any other almost-god thing they can think up to keep from saying that the Blessed Virgin is the is the God Bearer, the Mother of God.

But hey, if you can figure out a way to use that diagram without accepting that the BVM is the Mother of the Son of God, Who according your very own diagram Is God. I'm keen to hear it.

I'm fine with Mary being the Mother of God so long as she does not become God in the process. Since all present are of that school of thought .. the controversy is ended.

 

[Jipsah]

The catholic church's Catechism refers to them under the title "Communion with the Dead".

"dead" in earthly terms, yeah. Not dead in Heaven.

In John 11 Christ says "Lazarus is dead"

Yep, there was his dead body, right there.

There is no place in OT or NT where the dead are referred to as "The ALIVE IN CHRIST"

Hmmm... St, Paul seems to have to believed that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.

By contrast -- in 1 Thess 4:13-18 they are called "The DEAD in Christ"

Still playing the same semantic shell game, ain'tcha?

The trick here i that pretty much nobody here except you buys into the idea of "soul sleep". Maybe call some of your brethren to rally round and cheer for your side.

 

[BobRyan]

"dead" in earthly terms, yeah. Not dead in Heaven.

Yep, there was his dead body, right there.

In John 11 Christ did not say "I go that I may wake IT"

"our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM".

"Lazarus is dead"

That is what we see "in the text" of John 11.

Hmmm... St, Paul seems to have to believed that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.

Interesting that Paul never says "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" .

Not even in 2 Cor 5.

In the Bible - details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm fine with Mary being the Mother of God so long as she does not become God

Are you fine with Joseph being "stronger than God"?
Are you fine with the fact that the Bible does not use any of those terms for either Joseph or Mary?

 

[Jipsah]

I'm fine with Mary being the Mother of God so long as she does not become God in the process.

And once again, a grand total of no one here has indicated any belief whatsoever that the Blessed Virgin is a deity of any kind. That's simply a straw man to be beaten to shore an otherwise hollow argument.

Since all present are of that school of thought .. the controversy is ended.

I reckon you'll have to break that news to your brethren who are still busy taking the Son of God to bits to prevent Him from having a mother.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

And once again, a grand total of no one here has indicated any belief whatsoever that the Blessed Virgin is a deity of any kind. That's simply a straw man to be beaten to shore an otherwise hollow argument.

I reckon you'll have to break that news to your brethren who are still busy taking the Son of God to bits to prevent Him from having a mother.

I posted an article where the Pope actually had to specify that Mary is a Mother and not a co-redemptrix. Since such a statement had to be made publicly, it stands to reason a lot of people really really wanted him to reason in the other direction.

This gaslighting of "no one actually believes that" is not helpful.

 

[Jipsah]

Including the ones you're at pains to omit. It doesn't really matter anyway. the non-SDAs who buy into the notion of soul sleep are as scarce as hen's teeth.

 

[Jipsah]

I posted an article where the Pope actually had to specify that Mary is a Mother and not a co-redemptrix. Since such a statement had to be made publicly, it stands to reason a lot of people really really wanted him to reason in the other direction.

This gaslighting of "no one actually believes that" is not helpful.

First, look up "gaslight", verb. Second, I said " no one here". I'm sure you can find some people, some where, who worship the BVM as a goddess. If you want to inveigh against that belief, find some of them and wear yourself out; ain't none here. While you're looking for misbelievers, you might wnt to consider your EP brethren who embrace Nestorian and Arian and similar heretical views on the Trinity. There,s no dearth of them in these forums, and probably in this thread.

 

[dzheremi]

I may be wrong about this (Catholics, please chime in if that's the case so that I can learn), but it seems most sensible to me to assume that Pope Francis is speaking against what is a popular pet belief of some within his own communion, but not without stiff and continued opposition against its 'official' declaration (see, e.g., this summary by Fr. Johann Roten, S.M.). So I believe his reminder should be taken in a manner similar to how he's previously had to remind people that it is not within his power to ordain women to the priesthood, and similar things that some people may want but are not going to happen.

Why this should be used against veneration of the Theotokos more generally (as though there is no difference between right belief and wrong if they both have the same referent), I have no idea, but please, let's try to be reasonable even in disagreement.

 

[dzheremi]

While you're looking for misbelievers, you might wnt to consider your EP brethren who embrace Nestorian and Arian and similar heretical views on the Trinity. There,s no dearth of them in these forums, and probably in this thread.

I hate to have to agree with this, but yes. It is especially strange to me because of course the Nestorian position is as it is in order to supposedly preempt the undue elevation of the Theotokos into a role that none who were against Nestorius ever claimed she had to begin with, so it creates a heresy to combat a problem that did not exist (outside of I suppose collyridianism, though that heresy was specific to small populations in Arabia, not Constantinople, where Nestorius was based), eventually creating a very big problem that requires an ecumenical council to address (Ephesus I). And as we see in this thread and really whenever this topic comes up, the adherents of (crypto-)Nestorianism have grown far beyond the theological borders of its previous popularity in the Church of the East/Persian Church, which was its traditional home. (I'll leave it someone who knows the ins and outs of the CoE, like @The Liturgist, to explain how it is that the modern CoE is not even 'properly' Nestorian anymore; we still call them that in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and that's from not just the historical association, but even modern contact, as at the Monastery of St. Bishoy in Wadi El Natrun in the 1990s. Point being, Nestorianism is surely more popular now in the various Evangelical Protestant sects as represented here on CF by people who are posting Nestorian garbage than it apparently even is with the 'original' Nestorians, who are few in number and may have even changed their tune on this question somewhat!)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Second, I said " no one here".

So did I, so should I turn the other cheek?

Have fun inventing fantasy beliefs for others.

 

[Jipsah]

Have fun inventing fantasy beliefs for others.

No need, American Evangelicals manage to reinvent and embrace ancient heresies for themselves faster than anyone could ever gen up new fantasy religions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No need, American Evangelicals manage to reinvent and embrace ancient heresies for themselves faster than anyone could ever gen up new fantasy religions.

It is both alarming and amusing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No need, American Evangelicals manage to reinvent and embrace ancient heresies for themselves faster than anyone could ever gen up new fantasy religions.

I am neither American or Evangelical, so shows what you know

 

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