Mariolatry?

[RandyPNW]

So you deny the full Deity of Jesus Christ, the coequality of persons in the Holy Trinity,
and reject the Nicene Creed?

Because believing in those things rules out the idea that God would need to communicate our prayers to the Son.

You responded to a post that I had imperfectly edited. What I meant to say is....

No matter how I or anybody feels, I don't find it wrong to speak directly to Jesus. When we pray in the Spirit to God, He can instantly communicate to the Son. However, the Son, by definition, is a limited expression of Deity and is a different expression of God the Father as God the Son.

The Father and the Son are equally Deity. But they have distinct representations by the Word of God.

This Word is a revelation that emerges from the mouth of God the Father and comes to exist and appear in finite form so that we can perceive God in the form of a man. Being that this revelation is a product of God's Word designed to reflect the identity and personality of God Himself, this created image is actually God Himself.

God's Word is in itself Deity. It can be used to create non-divine things or it can be used to create an image of God Himself, identified as God. In the case of the Son, God has created an image of Himself in human form.

So does God the Father communicate with the Son, or is this just an act? At his Water Baptism the Father spoke to and communicated with His Son. It was a real communication between two Persons of the same Deity.

Yes, God can communicate prayers from us on earth to His Son in heaven, who is on His right hand. And we can believe this, still holding to belief in the equality of the Persons of the Trinity.

 

[RandyPNW]

And it is in this sense that Mary is an intercessor, and she is par excellence, since she is the one who was most united to the Incarnate Word, being his own Mother.

I don't personally believe that God made Mary to be "the most united to the Incarnate Word." I think we all have equal access to God the Father through the one intercessor Jesus, who alone redeems us from death.

God may choose some to be in closer roles with Jesus, but why would God, the Creator, make people to play inferior, less-liked roles? The divine "doll-maker" would only make dolls He personally liked, and would not make something He disliked or viewed as an inferior product.

Mary is not, in my opinion, "closer to the Incarnate Word" except in the way a Mother gives birth to her baby. In no way does that imply that Jesus views others as less "close to him" spiritually.

Matt 12.46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Joseph101]

I don't personally believe that God made Mary to be "the most united to the Incarnate Word." I think we all have equal access to God the Father through the one intercessor Jesus, who alone redeems us from death.

God may choose some to be in closer roles with Jesus, but why would God, the Creator, make people to play inferior, less-liked roles? The divine "doll-maker" would only make dolls He personally liked, and would not make something He disliked or viewed as an inferior product.

Mary is not, in my opinion, "closer to the Incarnate Word" except in the way a Mother gives birth to her baby. In no way does that imply that Jesus views others as less "close to him" spiritually.

Matt 12.46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Salvation comes to us only through Christ and we agree on that. I do not believe that the saints or Mary are our saviors. I believe what the Bible says, that we can all intercede for each other. The only mediation of Jesus Christ is not against intercession. In fact the Bible says that we are all intercessors.

Mary interceded before God the Son for men while on earth. If she interceded while here, all the more reason she will do so while fully united with God in heaven. If out of love Mary interceded here, now she will be able to do it much more there.

Furthermore, if Jesus Christ heard and responded to the evildoer's prayer for a moment of faith when he was on the cross, he will even more listen to his mother who did the will of God in perfection. If for a minute of faith he listened and responded to the evildoer, what won't Jesus do for his mother who had a life of faith and obedience?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I may know Paul well, but Peter not so much. Some of us are not Renaissance Men, who know much about everything--the sun, moon, and the stars. I have limited brain capacity--I trust you will understand?

You will always find flaws in me. I will always find flaws in you. Let's not let my view that Catholics have flaws get in the way of Christian fellowship. I find as much to like about Catholics as I find flaws in their beliefs.

The flaws lie within the statements of your posts and the logic that connects one statement to another. They do not reflect on you as a person.

 

[d taylor]

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God is triune with respect to the persons, but one with respect to the divine nature. If each person of The Trinity had His own nature, we would have three gods. But since the three persons equally share in one divine nature, They are one God.

 

[RandyPNW]

Salvation comes to us only through Christ and we agree on that. I do not believe that the saints or Mary are our saviors. I believe what the Bible says, that we can all intercede for each other. The only mediation of Jesus Christ is not against intercession. In fact the Bible says that we are all intercessors.

Mary interceded before God the Son for men while on earth. If she interceded while here, all the more reason she will do so while fully united with God in heaven. If out of love Mary interceded here, now she will be able to do it much more there.

Furthermore, if Jesus Christ heard and responded to the evildoer's prayer for a moment of faith when he was on the cross, he will even more listen to his mother who did the will of God in perfection. If for a minute of faith he listened and responded to the evildoer, what won't Jesus do for his mother who had a life of faith and obedience?

Jesus doesn't need to be motivated by love for his mother in order to care for the human race. God cared about the human race from the moment of creation. God is love, and needs no motivation by people to love His people.

Mary did not live life to perfection. That is Catholic belief, and not in accord with Paul's teaching, "all have sinned."

I'm fine with Mary interceding for others, though I have no reason to believe she interceded for Gentiles. But Mary is no different than any other Christian. We are all called to intercede for one another and for the world within our orbit of influence.

We ask for things that God has entrusted to us. Mary's calling was not the whole world. Peter's orbit, and Paul's orbit, was much larger than Mary's orbit. But Mary was probably of the highest caste, giving birth to our Savior. And she reflected humility, admirably.

 

[RandyPNW]

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God is triune with respect to the persons, but one with respect to the divine nature. If each person of The Trinity had His own nature, we would have three gods. But since the three persons equally share in one divine nature, They are one God.

Yes, but Jesus had both a human and a divine nature. Jesus was a human expression of the divine.

The Spirit does not have a created nature but reflects the revelation of a divine Person in the context of finite space. God the Father is beyond time and space. The Spirit moves within time and space. The Son moves, like the Spirit, through time and space, but has a human nature.

The Father operates through time and space via the Spirit and the Son. Since He is, by definition, beyond time and space, His Person is revealed, by His Word, through either the Spirit or the Son, who are, by definition, able to travel through time and space.

So the Person of the Father reveals Himself to us in the Persons of the Spirit and the Son. Or, we can view Him in any form of the Word that reveals to us who He is.

Anyway, that's how I see it and describe it. But I completely agree--the 3 Persons are united by a single divine nature, or substance.

 

[RandyPNW]

The flaws lie within the statements of your posts and the logic that connects one statement to another. They do not reflect on you as a person.

Well, sometimes the hardest flaws we are able to see are our own. So I certainly may have logical flaws. I just don't see them at this time.

 

[Valletta]

Jesus doesn't need to be motivated by love for his mother in order to care for the human race. God cared about the human race from the moment of creation. God is love, and needs no motivation by people to love His people.

Mary did not live life to perfection. That is Catholic belief, and not in accord with Paul's teaching, "all have sinned."

As you have been told, Jesus did not sin, newborn infants have not sinned, and severely mentally handicapped people have not sinned. It too has been pointed out to you that the text is not about Mary. While you may believe what you wish, realize that Paul's statement in no way supports your teaching. You have (how many times now?) failed to answer what sins you think newborns have committed.

 

[RandyPNW]

As you have been told, Jesus did not sin, newborn infants have not sinned, and severely mentally handicapped people have not sinned.

You have told me that, but I don't believe the Bible means that. When it says that "all have sinned" I believe it logically excludes Jesus, who is not just a mere mortal. He is also God.

Yes, Jesus did not sin. He was born of a virgin, born of the Holy Spirit, and thus not subject to the curse placed upon all of mankind. Mary sinned because she is part of fallen humanity. Infants have sin in them, even if they do not consciously sin. The severely handicapped are in the same boat--they have sin in them, but they are not as responsible as others for their sin.

It too has been pointed out to you that the text is not about Mary. While you may believe what you wish, realize that Paul's statement in no way supports your teaching. You have repeatedly (how many times now?) failed to answer what sins you think newborns have committed, I hope at some level you will realize your violation of logic.

I have been stating my position for years. This is not my only forum. I've been doing this for well since before 2000.

All of mankind is born with a sin nature. That means infants and the severely handicapped have the sin nature in them, regardless of how conscious they are of it.

We have to trust that God's mercy will cover those who sin with very diminished capacity to sin. We're told that in the age to come some will suffer light stripes, and some heavier stripes. We don't know what eternal punishment is, except that it is eternal exclusion from the close presence of the Lord. I don't believe it will be a "torture chamber" for all eternity.

My own belief is that people are pre-determined by the circumstances into which their parents produce them, whether they live according to God's word or not, conscious of it or not--God knows who are being produced by His word into the right circumstances in which they will choose for Him or would've chosen for Him.

God is not responsible for how people live and then produce children properly or not. He is not responsible for the circumstances into which fallen people throw their children. So people choose their fate, according to their environment, whether they are fully conscious of it or not, whether it is strictly potential or not.

So this takes us in a different direction. That's why I did not go there.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Mary did not live life to perfection. That is Catholic belief, and not in accord with Paul's teaching, "all have sinned."

Satan is known as the accuser of the brethren, accusing both the righteous and the wicked of sin with impure motives. Yet, there is no passage in the Holy Scriptures or the writings of the Church Fathers that justly accuses the Blessed Mary of sin, even though Jesus' accusers charged Him with blasphemy. It is crucial to exercise caution when leveling accusations against the sanctified.

 

[Valletta]

You have told me that, but I don't believe the Bible means that. When it says that "all have sinned" I believe it logically excludes Jesus, who is not just a mere mortal. He is also God.

Yes, Jesus did not sin. He was born of a virgin, born of the Holy Spirit, and thus not subject to the curse placed upon all of mankind. Mary sinned because she is part of fallen humanity. Infants have sin in them, even if they do not consciously sin. The severely handicapped are in the same boat--they have sin in them, but they are not as responsible as others for their sin.

There you go. The Bible does not say "all have sin in them." The Bible says "all have sinned." As with "all of Judea" went out to see John the Baptist, the commentary is not a claim that every pagan, every Roman soldier no matter what rank, went to see John the baptist. It's a manner of speaking. In the case of "all have sinned" we know babies did not sin. What you are doing is changing "all have sinned" to "all have sin in them" in order to try and justify your belief that Mary sinned. The Bible simply does not say what you want it to say. The phrase is not a commentary on Mary.

 

[Valletta]

Satan is known as the accuser of the brethren, accusing both the righteous and the wicked of sin with impure motives. Yet, there is no passage in the Holy Scriptures or the writings of the Church Fathers that justly accuses the Blessed Mary of sin, even though Jesus' accusers charged Him with blasphemy. It is crucial to exercise caution when leveling accusations against the sanctified.

Indeed, at the Last Judgment Jesus may ask accusers what sins they accuse His mother of committing.

 

[Joseph101]

Jesus doesn't need to be motivated by love for his mother in order to care for the human race. God cared about the human race from the moment of creation. God is love, and needs no motivation by people to love His people.

Mary did not live life to perfection. That is Catholic belief, and not in accord with Paul's teaching, "all have sinned."

I'm fine with Mary interceding for others, though I have no reason to believe she interceded for Gentiles. But Mary is no different than any other Christian. We are all called to intercede for one another and for the world within our orbit of influence.

We ask for things that God has entrusted to us. Mary's calling was not the whole world. Peter's orbit, and Paul's orbit, was much larger than Mary's orbit. But Mary was probably of the highest caste, giving birth to our Savior. And she reflected humility, admirably.

Mary's uniqueness is because she is the Tehotokos.

Jesus was under the law and had no sin. In the law, sin was transferred from the mother, so it is logical that he would ensure that the woman who bore him was not a sinner.

God bless you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I really hate to zero in on something that is so central to the Catholic Faith, but as a life-long Protestant I have to address this. Catholic Christians are my "brothers and sisters," just as any Christian would be my "brother or sister." And I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

I find it difficult to read posts by Catholics who continually do so in reference to "our Lady," as if she is a demi-god. I'm realistic and don't expect many Catholics to up and change their ways. They would have to leave Catholicism entirely, perhaps?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

Prayers of supplication aren’t worship. We might ask a brother or sister to pray for us, they ask Mary and the saints to intercede for them on their behalf which is pretty much the same thing only they can’t ask them face to face. As for calling her the “queen of heaven” that comes from the example given in scripture where king David’s mother was referred to as the queen.

 

[d taylor]

Yes, but Jesus had both a human and a divine nature. Jesus was a human expression of the divine.

The Spirit does not have a created nature but reflects the revelation of a divine Person in the context of finite space. God the Father is beyond time and space. The Spirit moves within time and space. The Son moves, like the Spirit, through time and space, but has a human nature.

The Father operates through time and space via the Spirit and the Son. Since He is, by definition, beyond time and space, His Person is revealed, by His Word, through either the Spirit or the Son, who are, by definition, able to travel through time and space.

So the Person of the Father reveals Himself to us in the Persons of the Spirit and the Son. Or, we can view Him in any form of the Word that reveals to us who He is.

Anyway, that's how I see it and describe it. But I completely agree--the 3 Persons are united by a single divine nature, or substance.

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I like to enter into discussions like this to see really what people who do not believe as i do, believe and also to better study my position and hopefully grow in the process.

 

[RandyPNW]

I like to enter into discussions like this to see really what people who do not believe as i do, believe and also to better study my position and hopefully grow in the process.​

I do too. I was somewhat forced into the difficult study of the Trinity way back in the 1970s, when I had moved to California and joined the "Local Church" cult--some outside of the group today no longer consider it a "cult."

But at the time it promoted a kind of modalistic view of the 3 Persons of the Trinity. Christian Research Institute had sponsored a tract on them, exposing their beliefs as modalistic and heretical, and I tried to understand the difficulties involved. What a headache!

Anyway, after extricating myself from the group I over a period of time acquired a working knowledge of the subject, but found that I could never adopt an explanation and verbiage that can please everybody. But I think it's a good exercise.

I find the early orthodox formulations of the Trinity to be brilliant and acceptable, so that I try to remain as close to these formulations as possible. They work well to discredit new heretical formulations that attempt to reduce the Deity of Christ or the distinctions among the members of the Trinity.

3 distinct Persons and 1 shared Divine Substance. Christ fully human and fully Divine.

A big problem I had initially was in explaining the difference between the Father and the Spirit, because neither had a created human nature like the Son by which to distinguish them as Persons. I found that the Father is used as a Person of God who existed before all creation and as the origin of all creation, whereas the Spirit is used as God's Person moving within the created universe. So there's that!

 

[RandyPNW]

Satan is known as the accuser of the brethren, accusing both the righteous and the wicked of sin with impure motives. Yet, there is no passage in the Holy Scriptures or the writings of the Church Fathers that justly accuses the Blessed Mary of sin, even though Jesus' accusers charged Him with blasphemy. It is crucial to exercise caution when leveling accusations against the sanctified.

I have zero fear of God in declaring that Mary was a sinner just like any of us. She was born of a fallen race--the human race. She was born with a Sin Nature, just as Paul said, "all have sinned."

So you should fear accusing me of misrepresenting the Apostle Paul. You will have to sleep well at night with your false Catholic beliefs.

 

[RandyPNW]

Prayers of supplication aren’t worship.

If it's a prayer, who do you think people pray to--humans? The only human I could justify praying to is Jesus himself!

We might ask a brother or sister to pray for us, they ask Mary and the saints to intercede for them on their behalf which is pretty much the same thing only they can’t ask them face to face.

But that's not what's happening here. You're praying *to* Mary in order to ask her to intercede for us. Praying *to her* is something reserved for God alone.

Under the Law, Israel was forbidden from engaging in necromancy. King Saul was soundly condemned for trying to contact the Prophet Samuel, not just because he used a witch, but more because both the witch and contacting the dead are forms of forbidden occultism!

As for calling her the “queen of heaven” that comes from the example given in scripture where king David’s mother was referred to as the queen.

That's pure rationalization. Mary was Mother of Jesus, but she was not a queen mother, whether mother of an earthly king or mother of a heavenly king. And she certainly was not a "Queen of Heaven!"

If she was "queen," what realm was she queen over? Jesus did not have an earthly Kingdom, since Israel was abandoning God's Kingdom. And Jesus, as heavenly King, was king by virtue of his Deity, and not by his earthly heritage. Mary had no business in that!

 

[BNR32FAN]

If it's a prayer, who do you think people pray to--humans? The only human I could justify praying to is Jesus himself!

Obviously people pray to humans otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

But that's not what's happening here. You're praying *to* Mary in order to ask her to intercede for us. Praying *to her* is something reserved for God alone. Under the Law, Israel was forbidden from engaging in necromancy. King Saul was soundly condemned for trying to contact the Prophet Samuel, not just because he used a witch, but more because both the witch and contacting the dead is forbidden occultism!

First of all I’m not Catholic nor have I ever been. Furthermore I’ve never prayed to Mary or any of the saints in my entire life. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that prayer is reserved for God alone that’s just coming from your own imagination. And your comparison to necromancy is not even close to being relevant because God forbids us to seek council with dead spirits thru the means of an oracle. Nobody is seeking council by asking a saint to speak to God on their behalf. The term “seek council” means to acquire information, it refers to a two way conversation thru the use of magic which is forbidden. Nobody’s using any magic or seeking information when asking a Saint to speak to God on their behalf.

That's pure rationalization. Mary was Mother of King Jesus, but she was not a mother of an earthly king like David's mother was. Nor was she ever identified as a "heavenly queen as mother of a heavenly King."

Is this somehow supposed to mean that it is forbidden to call her queen of heaven? Catholics don’t teach that Mary is ruling heaven. I understand having problems with the term but if you’re going to refute it you must refute it in the context that they are teaching it, not apply different meanings to it that they’re not teaching it to mean because then you’re only refuting your own imagination instead of what they’re actually teaching.