Mariolatry?

[KathrynAragon]

Sorry, that is certainly tradition, but is absolutely no place in scripture.

Praying to Mary also contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Nope, sorry. And though I am Catholic, I am a convert and not particularly crazy about Mary. Anyway, who is Hebrews 12:1 talking about when it brings up a cloud of witnesses?

 

[Jipsah]

I ask people to pray with me. They are exclusively living when I ask.

I take it you believe that those in Heaven are dead there as well as here. Interesting.

This is a difference we have. I am not trying to convert you.

Nor I you. I think you're wrong, but there's a lot of that going around.

And there is no way for you to convert me to thinking that way again.
What way is that? That those who are absent from the body are present with the Lord? It's in the Bible, innit?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Much love and respect.

And also to you.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Nope, sorry. And though I am Catholic, I am a convert and not particularly crazy about Mary. Anyway, who is Hebrews 12:1 talking about when it brings up a cloud of witnesses?

ah - Hebrews 12: 1Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

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Not Mary - unless she suddenly became a cloud of witnesses (plural). There is also zero reference to offering prayer to them. So I am not really sure what your are trying to make these verses say. There is no mention of Mary and there is no mention of prayer.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I take it you believe that those in Heaven are dead there as well as here. Interesting.

You would be taking that wrongly.

Nor I you. I think you're wrong, but there's a lot of that going around.

Yup ditto same thought I have about you.

And there is no way for you to convert me to thinking that way again.
What way is that?

Because I have learned the truth.

That those who are absent from the body are present with the Lord?

Yep - they sure are - but they are not our mediators, only Jesus is.

it's in the Bible, innit?

It's in the Bible, innit?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

And also to you.

We are with the Lord when absent from the body - absolutely spot on accurate - see - we have more to agree about then disagree about.

 

[George95]

Jesus rose from the dead - we pray to a risen Savior -

Mary did not

Do you believe though that

Sorry, that is certainly tradition, but is absolutely no place in scripture.

Praying to Mary also contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

That says mediator, nothing about intercessor.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Do you believe though that

If I said it, but did not believe it - I would be a liar - I am not a liar, yes I believe it.

That says mediator, nothing about intercessor.

Mediator - transliterated - mesitēs - means

1. one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

Intercessor:

noun​

1. One who goes between, or intercedes; a mediator.
   Similar: mediator
2. One who interposes between parties at variance, with a view to reconcile them.
3. One who pleads in behalf of another.

They are synonymous.

 

[George95]

If I said it, but did not believe it - I would be a liar - I am not a liar, yes I believe it.

That was from a post I was writing though and never finished my post, sorry for the incomplete sentence lol.

They are synonymous.

So then why ask for others to pray for us?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Also the ultra high church parish of St. Magnus the Martyr in the City of London worships liturgically in a manner that I think is much closer to what was envisaged at Vatican II in Sacrosanctum Concilium than the deeply problematic Novus Ordo Missae.

I don't consider the standard form of the Mass in English to be problematic. It is well-crafted, reverent, and uplifting.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some thoughts on Martin Luther's position on venerating Blessed Mary.

Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant Reformation, expressed various views about the Virgin Mary. While he criticized certain practices associated with Mary, he also held her in high regard. Here are some notable statements attributed to Martin Luther:​

1. Assumption of Mary: Luther acknowledged that the Virgin Mary is in heaven, although he didn’t delve into the specifics of how it happened. He emphasized that Mary lives in Christ, and her veneration is deeply ingrained in human hearts1.
2. Highest Woman and Spiritual Mother: Luther referred to Mary as the “highest woman” and the “noblest gem” in Christianity after Christ. He believed that she deserved honor and praise, but not in a way that detracts from Christ or the Scriptures1. Interestingly, he also called her the “Spiritual Mother” for Christians, emphasizing her role in God’s plan1.
3. Perpetual Virginity: Luther affirmed Mary’s perpetual virginity, stating that Christ was the only Son of Mary, and she bore no other children besides Him. He believed that she remained a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus1.
4. Mary’s Grace and Holiness: Luther praised Mary’s grace and holiness, considering her full of God’s gifts and devoid of evil. He saw her as more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility and wisdom1.
5. Mary’s Humility: Luther highlighted Mary’s humility, emphasizing that she didn’t claim anything for herself but counted only God as great. Her blessedness came from God’s regard for her, not from any self-promotion2.

In summary, while Luther had theological disagreements with Catholic practices related to Mary, he still recognized her significance and held her in esteem as the Mother of Jesus and a model of faith. His views on Mary reflect a complex interplay of reverence and theological distinctiveness within the context of the Reformation134.​

 

[Jipsah]

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You seem confused, take a break get some rest and try again later.

Jesus is God. Not A god, not a God-Man, not a demigod, not a subordinate god. God. God Incarnate. Christianity 101.

 

[Jipsah]

There is also zero reference to offering prayer to them.​

Dunno what "offering prayer" means.
"Kim jundosah (elder), please pray for me."
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for me."
One is OK, one is not?

 

[Jipsah]

OK, gimme a sanity check here. The folks that I'm seeing who take exception to referring to the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of God. seem to also take exception to saying "Jesus is God". Is that just me, or what?

 

[The Liturgist]

This is a difference we have. I am not trying to convert you. And there is no way for you to convert me to thinking that way again.

I am assuredly not trying to convert you. It is quite impossible in most cases to convert someone through argumentation because people don’t like to admit they’re wrong. Orthodox and Anglican Christians such as myself and @Jipsah as a rule do not aggressively proselytize other Christians; we will defend our faith from unfair criticism, but in general the focus is on the conversion of non=Christians, and even this cannot be done through argumentation. And to quote Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, negative proselytism is extremely un-Orthodox (that is to say, contrary to the faith of the Orthodox Church).

Additionally it’s not as though we have any shortage of converts at present. I’m just glad I got in a decade ago before the rush started. XD

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

OK, gimme a sanity check here. The folks that I'm seeing who take exception to referring to the Blessed Virgin seem to also take exception to saying "Jesus is God". Is that just me, or what?

It's not only you; I also perceive it. The diligence with which they deny the divinity of the child born to Blessed Mary—mainly because they refuse to acknowledge that Blessed Mary is the mother of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ—results in their adoption of numerous formal heresies that the early Church had to confront.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That was from a post I was writing though and never finished my post, sorry for the incomplete sentence lol.

No harm, no foul my friend

So then why ask for others to pray for us?

Are speaking of others who are alive or talking to the dead?

I can find support for the prayer of agreemenet between believers
I can find support for praying to the Father in Jesus’ Name

I cannot find any support for speaking or asking the dead to pray.

I’m expressing my belief, please do not think I am attacking another’s belief system.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus is God. Not A god, not a God-Man, not a demigod, not a subordinate god. God. God Incarnate. Christianity 101.

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Did Jesus get His divine nature from Mary.

 

[Jipsah]

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Did Jesus get His divine nature from Mary.

Why, are you gonna try to argue that Jesus Christ isn't God?

 

[Jipsah]

I cannot find any support for speaking or asking the dead to pray.

I don't see any reason not to. They certainly seem to be represented as alive in Heaven, and there seems to be sufficient Scriptural reson to believe that at least some of them are privy to the prayers of those still here. So why not ask them to pray for us?

 

[d taylor]

Why, are you gonna try to argue that Jesus Christ isn't God?

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And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[RandyPNW]

Jesus is fully man and fully God, united in the incarnation in one hypostasis and one person, without change, confusion, separation or division, consubstantial with the Father and Holy Spirit and also consubstantial with mankind.

You cannot pray to Him without praying to both His humanity and His divinity.

By the way this is not me who is speaking, but every church father - even the Church of the East after the Christological reforms of Mar Babai the Great and its fathers such as St. Isaac the Syrian agree with the above.

The only ones who disagreed with it read like a rogues gallery of false teachers: Sabelius, Valentinus, Cerinthus, Paul of Samosata, Arius, Eunomius, Apollinarius, Nestorius, Eutyches, John Philoponus, and finally Pope Honorius and the Monothelites (actually that last entry sounds like the name of a band).

Also, all learned Protestant reformers including Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, Philip Melancthon, John Wesley, and for that matter John Calvin agreed with the Church Fathers on Christology.

I've not studied this, but can you refer me to just one example of a church father suggesting we should pray to the man Jesus? I don't at all doubt you, but I can see how one could easily juxtapose the Christological argument with the idea of praying to God directly through the man Jesus or indirectly to his divine nature.