Marian Apparitions...

[Bouke285]

I'm no expert i'm just trying to figure out why you think Mary is special enough to pray to.

 

[Rhamiel]

Jesus is better then John the Baptist, cool, no one is going to argue agianst that.

 

[Rhamiel]

All the Saints in heaven are with God, they do not sin anymore, they worship God and they have been made totaly pure. We ask them to pray for us. We ask all the Saints to pray for us as well as the saints on earth (other christians)
Many Catholics like Mary a lot, I am to tired to go into it all now, but in post #59 I pointed out how Mary is kinda seen as a symbol of the Church, as well as being a real person, well that is one thing, also on the cross Jesus

Jesus saw his own mother, and the disciple standing near whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son". Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother". And from that hour, he took his mother into his family.

John 19:26-27 Now this happened, Mary had someone to take care of her, was it also something more? Jesus uses the term "Woman" kind of odd to just call His mother Woman, he is about to die and she is there with Him and He calls her Woman, seems kinda impersonal, also the gospel writer did not use the name of the disciple but calls him "the disciple who Jesus loved" are we all not called to be disciples of Christ? does He not love us all?
so Jesus gave us His mother
she is a symbol of the Church
and she is a good example of what it means to be a Christian. read Luke 1:46-55 read Marys prayer, see how she told the people to do what Her Son told them to do at the wedding at Cana, she how she stayed by Her Son even up to His death on a cross

 

[Bouke285]

Well Jesus is the symbol of my church. Good night

 

[Rhamiel]

Well Jesus is the symbol of my church. Good night

the Church is made up of humans, humans filled with the Holy Spirit but just humans
Jesus is God and Man,
good night brother, this was fun, hope to see you around GT, it is a good place to debate and fine tune how you think about things, your posts got me thinking about the rosary and the role of Mary in my devotion to Christ

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus is better then John the Baptist, cool, no one is going to argue agianst that.

JESUS IS DA MAN!!!!!

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7304382

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the Loosing of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 16/19]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 16:17]
I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously

 

[narnia59]

<staff edit per FSG>​

by David J. Stewart​

Just curious, do you recommend David J. Stewart as a knowledgeable source?

He's the guy who has a false religions list that includes not only Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox, Church of Christ, United Church of Christ, Judaism, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Episcopals, and the Seventh Day Adventists among others.

False teachers include John MacArthur and Calvin, and Presbyterians and Protestants are heretics.

False prophets include Jerry Falwell, John MacArthur, Billy Graham, Chuck Colson, Paul Stanley, James Dobson, Pat Roberson, Mother Teresa, and Martin Luther.

He's a one-man 'he is the way, the truth and the life' act who also preaches that repentance is in no way necessary for salvation and those who dare to disagree are guilty of a "works-based" salvation theology, that 9/11 was a conspiracy enacted by the US Government, and that a woman whose husband beats her probably does things that 'makes him' and therefore deserves it.

Just in case you didn't know all that.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I'm no expert i'm just trying to figure out why you think Mary is special enough to pray to.

First, let us examine the definition of the word "pray"

pray /pre&#618;/ –verb (used with object) 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object) 8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

​

When we "pray" to Mary, we are using definition #4. We are asking her to pray for us, just as you would ask a friend, family member, pastor, etc., to pray for you.

Why do we ask her to pray for us?

Because as Christians we believe that life is eternal, and that the soul lives on forever after the body has died. Furthermore, St. James writes in Chapter 5 verse 16 of his gospel, "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Mary, (or as we call her in the Orthodox Church, Theotokos, meaning God-bearer) was a righteous woman. She was so righteous that God chose her, out of all the women in Judea, to bear His son. Furthermore, in St. Luke's gospel, Mary declares "For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." (Luke 1:48.)

So because we believe the soul lives on forever, that the prayers of a righteous man/woman availath much, and that Mary was a righteous woman, we ask her to pray for us.

 

[Bouke285]

So if John is the best man other than Jesus why don't you pray to him? It's not like Mary would hear your praying anyways there is no where in scripture allowing, showing, or informing prayer to Mary, or anyone else other than God. In fact it forbids it.

 

[Bouke285]

He's a one-man 'he is the way, the truth and the life' act who also preaches that repentance is in no way necessary for salvation and those who dare to disagree are guilty of a "works-based" salvation theology, that 9/11 was a conspiracy enacted by the US Government, and that a woman whose husband beats her probably does things that 'makes him' and therefore deserves it.

Just in case you didn't know all that.

Surely, nine out of ten people in this wicked world are bound for a Godless, eternal hell. I have no doubts whatsoever that 90% of the people in this world are going to Hell. Why? For one simple reason friend, they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior--Their sins have not been forgiven. We estimated that 232,876 humans die every day on average. 232,876 minus 10 % equals 209,588 people that perish into hell fire and destruction every single day that passes. So roughly, 200,000 HUMANS PLUNGE INTO HELL FIRE EACH AND EVERY DAY! We also see that 23,287 people (10%) make it to Heaven each day on average.

David J. Stewart, jesus-is-savior.com [Comments (118)] [2006-Jul-06]

Sorry, buddy Oh and please source your other coments about this man. Because I looked couldn't find them and because this one was not true.

Here is some more








David J. Stewart, jesus-is-savior.com

1. [SIZE=+1]By faith in Jesus Christ ALONE we can be saved.[/SIZE]

Salvation is NOT found in a religion or good works, but in a person... The LORD JESUS CHRIST!

• [SIZE=+1]John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+1]John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+1]John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+1]Mark 1:15, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."[/SIZE]
• Acts 26:18, "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
• [SIZE=+1]Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+1]1st Corinthians 3:11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+1]Galatians 3:26, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."[/SIZE]
  

Oh and about your list it is actually a list of well written, thought out articles that give reasons maybe you should take a look.
​

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

So if John is the best man other than Jesus why don't you pray to him? It's not like Mary would hear your praying anyways there is no where in scripture allowing, showing, or informing prayer to Mary, or anyone else other than God. In fact it forbids it.

We actually ask Mary and all the saints to pray for us... and since when is intercessory prayer forbidden?

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4

We are simply asking for them to pray for us as I would ask you to pray for me. That's it.

As it is too long to post here, I'd like to invite you to read this article -- "Prayer and the Departed Saints."

I think it may answer some of your questions.

Here is the preamble to the article:

<H1>Prayer and the Departed Saints

By David C. Ford, Ph.D
"Daddy, what happens when someone dies?"
Not an easy question to answer--especially when it has been brought on by the loss of a family member or close friend. To many, there is no answer. Death is the great unknown, the destroyer, the invincible foe whose untimely appearance, for many, signals only the cessation of life. The Bible teaches that the answer to the mystery of death is found in the life of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and One of the Holy Trinity. Through His birth, life, death, and resurrection, death itself has been vanquished and the power of the grave overthrown. Death has been "swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54), says Saint Paul. The joy of eternal life is offered to those who live in Him. All Christians agree on this central facet of the Faith. Yet there are many differing opinions concerning the nature of life beyond the veil. Though Christians do not look upon death with the same sense of hopelessness and dread as do "those who have no hope" (1 Thessalonians 4:13), there are still many questions which arise. We know that in Christ, death is not invincible. But it can still appear as a powerful and fearful enemy whose presence is surrounded by mystery and the unknown. Christians may ask: What happens when a believer dies? Does his or her spirit go immediately to heaven? Are the souls of the dead conscious? Are they actively involved in what is going on around them, or do they remain asleep until the day of resurrection? Do our departed friends and loved ones in Christ remember us? Are they aware of what is taking place here on earth? Are they still involved somehow in our day-to-day lives? Do the saints of old-those who lived especially holy lives dedicated to the service of God-still play an active role in the Church today? Is it possible to ask them to pray for us and to intercede on our behalf? For the Orthodox Church, such questions as those above are not peripheral aspects of the Faith. The Church's answers to these questions form the basis for important elements of her worship and spirituality. The concern which the Church has for those who have departed in Christ flows from the all-encompassing, never-ending love which she has for all her members those still alive on this earth, and those who have preceded us into the world beyond. I would like to address two aspects of this important matter of life after death from an Orthodox vantage point. In Part One, I wish to deal with questions concerning the state of the soul after death, and the life of those who have died in Christ. In Part Two, I will focus on issues concerning our relationship with the saints in heaven, and in particular, the intercession of the saints. All of these issues are important aspects of the doctrine often referred to as "the communion of saints". Orthodox practices in this area are often misunderstood. Protestants often fear their resemblance to the Roman Catholic practices which the Reformers reacted so strongly against. And Roman Catholics are often perplexed by the similarities and the differences which Orthodox practices seem to have in comparison with their own. Let's take a look at some of these critical issues from an Orthodox perspective.

</H1>

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

More info on praying to the saints

 

[Bouke285]

We actually ask Mary and all the saints to pray for us... and since when is intercessory prayer forbidden?

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4



</H1>

The defineition of Intercessory prayer is this:

A practice of using prayer as a medium of healing, seeking to invoke spiritual/religious help in assisting or supporting healing.

No where in the Bible does it say we should or can pray to anyone other than God.

 

[Bouke285]

I read your article it seems to take up a lot of the time convinsing people that praying doesn't have to be talking to someone immortal. It wastes half of the article talking about how pray has many definitions, but the one definition you talk of is talking to someone of a different world. In this case from here to Heaven, which should only be between us and God but is somehow odly translated that we should pray to Mary etc...

 

[Rhamiel]

Litany of St. John the Baptist
Lord, have mercy on us, Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven, Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, Have mercy on us.
God, the Holy Ghost, Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, One God, Have mercy on us.</SPAN>
Holy Mary, Pray for us.
Queen of Prophets, Pray for us.
Queen of Martyrs, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, precursor of Christ, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, glorious forerunner of the Sun of Justice, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, minister of Baptism to Jesus, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, burning and shining lamp of the world, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, angel of purity before thy birth, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, special friend and favorite of Christ, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, heavenly contemplative, whose element was prayer, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, intrepid preacher of truth, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, voice crying in the wilderness, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, miracle of mortification and penance, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, example of profound humility, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, glorious martyr of zeal for God's holy law, Pray for us.
St. John the Baptist, gloriously fulfilling thy mission, Pray for us.

Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.
V. Pray for us, O glorious St. John the Baptist,
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let Us Pray: O God, Who hast honored this world by the birth of Saint John the Baptist, grant that Thy faithful people may rejoice in the way of eternal salvation, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen. ​

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The defineition of Intercessory prayer is this:

A practice of using prayer as a medium of healing, seeking to invoke spiritual/religious help in assisting or supporting healing.

No where in the Bible does it say we should or can pray to anyone other than God.

We are using intercessory prayer as a medium of healing, seeking to invoke spritual/religious help in assisting or supporting healing.

What else do you think we are doing when we pray to the Saints?

We are not WORSHIPPING them -- we are asking for their intercessions.

 

[narnia59]

Sorry, buddy Oh and please source your other coments about this man.

No problem.

He's the guy who has a false religions list that includes not only Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox, Church of Christ, United Church of Christ, Judaism, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Episcopals, and the Seventh Day Adventists among others.

From his website, his listing of false religions.
http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm

False teachers include John MacArthur and Calvin, and Presbyterians and Protestants are heretics.

Presbyterian Heresies: http://jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/presbyterian.htm

Protestatism: http://jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/protestantism.htm

John MacArthur:
http://jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/macarthur_heresy_on_the_blood.htm

John Calvin: http://jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Calvinism/john_calvin_exposed.htm




False prophets include Jerry Falwell, John MacArthur, Billy Graham, Chuck Colson, Paul Stanley, James Dobson, Pat Roberson, Mother Teresa, and Martin Luther.

http://jesus-is-savior.com/wolves_in_sheep's_clothing.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/false_prophets.htm



He's a one-man 'he is the way, the truth and the life' act who also preaches that repentance is in no way necessary for salvation and those who dare to disagree are guilty of a "works-based" salvation theology, that 9/11 was a conspiracy enacted by the US Government, and that a woman whose husband beats her probably does things that 'makes him' and therefore deserves it.

Repetance
http://jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Lordship Salvation/repentance_heresy.htm

9/11
http://jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/911 Cover-up/truth_about_911.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html


And regarding abusive husbands --

Such a wife needs to sincerely ask herself "why" her husband is being abusive--there's ALWAYS a reason. Some husbands are abusive; but 90% of all divorces are needlessly caused by a sinfully proud wife who causes grief for her husband, and he gets mad.

http://jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/divorce_not_ok.htm

Think! If your husband has physically beat you, then you both need counseling and help. Most husbands get angry for a reason. I'm not condoning domestic violence at all, I'm just saying that wives are often to blame for their husbands anger in the first place. You BOTH need counseling, a referee. If a wife won't cook, clean, or do her duties...what can the husband do? Where can he turn? He can't. He can't write his wife up or suspend her. He can't fire her for poor job performance. So what does a husband do? A loving husband will try to help her. A loving husband will try to find a way to make things better. But your husband is a human being too and he will get angry sometimes (most husbands do). Then when his wife runs out the door, the husband is looked down upon by others as the bad guy...an abusive husband. Women who run to shelters are automatically treated as "victims," but what about the husband at home who patiently asks his wife month after month to clean her house and cook him some nutritious meals (but she doesn't). She doesn't work a job outside the home, and doesn't do her work inside the home. This is very wrong and an injustice towards her family. All across America, hardworking men are often the silent victims of wives who won't be a mother to their children or a wife to their husband. Please don't misunderstand me, domestic violence is evil and wicked in every form; but it's high time for wives to start being honest with themselves and accepting their share of blame for their husband's anger. What makes your husband mad? What have you done to reconcile the matter? You have no right to demonize your husband if you're not fulfilling your responsibilities as a loyal and hard-working wife. A lot of women make their husbands angry by spending too much time on the phone. Ladies, stay off the phone! You probably gossip too much already.

http://jesus-is-savior.com/Womens Page/ungodly_counsel.htm


By all means, let's counsel an abused wife to stop making her husband angry by being on the phone too much....

 

[Photini]

By all means, let's counsel an abused wife to stop making her husband angry by being on the phone too much....

*sigh* My ex-husband used to hit me if we ran out of Kool-Aid (among other trivial reasons). No joke. Guess I shoulda just kept a closer eye on the Kool-Aid pitcher.

 

[narnia59]

*sigh* My ex-husband used to hit me if we ran out of Kool-Aid (among other trivial reasons). No joke. Guess I shoulda just kept a closer eye on the Kool-Aid pitcher.

I'm certain you're not joking. And according to Mr. Stewart here, you had no grounds for divorce in any sense. He's the only person I've seen come close to Fred Phelps for warped theology.

The best part of your statement is the 'ex'. I'm thankful you had the strength to remove yourself permanently from the situation, and the quite obvious grace to let God work in your life to heal and restore.

 

[Bouke285]

I'm affraid you misunderstood his repentance article, or at least didnt' read the whole thing. He is clearly saying that you can still sin once you are saved and you won't lose salvation.
Biblical Repentance
So does a person need to REPENT to be saved? Of course, but not the type of repentance that the Lordship Salvation crowd is propagating. There is a common misunderstanding about Biblical repentance. Many sincere people believe that repentance means to "cease from committing sin," but it does not. Ceasing from sin is a by product of repentance. Doing righteousness is also a by-product of repentance. Repentance is "a change of mind" that should eventually lead to a changed life. For some people, it is right away; yet other may take much longer. Some people are very slow to change, but ultimately they become the best Christians, because they are... slow to change. Everybody responds differently. It is one's attitude towards sin and the Savior that first change at the time of salvation, not necessarily the departing from sin. Repentance begins in the heart, not in our lifestyle.
Biblical repentance is a "turn around" (U-TURN). Salvation does NOT hinge on departing from our sins, but rather upon getting our sins forgiven. 1st Peter 2:2 speaks of growing in the Lord... as new born babes. Surely, you wouldn't expect a little baby to walk around the house, let alone run? When a lost sinner comes to Christ for salvation, the salvaging process only begins. Salvation is more than being saved. When we receive Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, we instantly become a child of God and our name is written in Heaven. But now the lifelong process of growing in the Lord begins. Just as a baby is physically born into the world and grows for the rest of his or her life, so does a spiritually born (i.e., born again) person grow throughout the remainder of their life. Sadly, many believers are midgets, suffering from stunted growth. Every Christian needs the milk of God's Word to grow into a healthy mature believer.
Jesus Promised Never to Turn Anyone
Jesus clearly said that he WILL forgive all who come to Him...