Marian Apparitions...

[Rhamiel]

Not Mary,satans angels.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

what proof do you have of this?

 

[jackmt]

what proof do you have of this?

Using Mary or any other "saint" as a mediator detracts from relationship with God through Christ, since there is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Mary told others to obey Christ. Neither she nor any of Christ's other followers, would do anything or have you do anything that draws you away from Christ. Any idea who would?

 

[Zeek]

Using Mary or any other "saint" as a mediator detracts from relationship with God through Christ, since there is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Mary told others to obey Christ. Neither she nor any of Christ's other followers, would do anything or have you do anything that draws you away from Christ. Any idea who would?

Exactly.

When one looks into the Marion apparitions, two things become apparent...namely that they only appeal to those who already have a devotion to Mary beyond what is biblically orthodox, and secondly these apparitions appeal to the flesh through religious means and incorporate advice, teaching and exhortations that perpetuate devotional distractions and ultimately keep people from the liberty that is supposed to be their in Jesus our Saviour.

The same goes for Angels or 'elevated Saints', they are all means through which many sincere Believers get 'diverted' from the simplicity of the Gospel and get involved in a form of godliness/religious pursuits, that actually draws them away from Jesus while at the same time making people thing they get to know G-d better...it is a paradox that has been subtly and persistantly exploited by the enemy of our souls.

I think it has its roots in a sort of vanity and false-humility, and it is this which is so tempting to the religious part of our fleshly desires....but it has been carefully packaged, exported and endorsed as a viable and necessary product, over hundreds of years...very much in line with Eve seeing the forbidden fruit, listening to teaching not of G-d and partaking forthwith.

Eccl 7:29“Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”

This is my post # 666...please note this has no significance.

 

[jackmt]

This is my post # 666...please note this has no significance.

When I was at Bible College my punch card # was 666. I thought that was pretty funny as I was a new believer.

 

[Rhamiel]

Using Mary or any other "saint" as a mediator detracts from relationship with God through Christ, since there is but one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Mary told others to obey Christ. Neither she nor any of Christ's other followers, would do anything or have you do anything that draws you away from Christ. Any idea who would?

when we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, it does not take away from the role of Christ as sole mediator anymore then asking a brother or sister here on earth takes away from the role of Christ as sole mediator
it is the same thing

 

[Zeek]

When I was at Bible College my punch card # was 666. I thought that was pretty funny as I was a new believer.

I can imagine....

 

[Zeek]

when we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, it does not take away from the role of Christ as sole mediator anymore then asking a brother or sister here on earth takes away from the role of Christ as sole mediator
it is the same thing

There is such a vast difference in asking friends to pray for you, and actually praying to Mary or Angels..here is an example:-

O most holy angel of God,
appointed by God to be my guardian,
I give you thanks for all the benefits
which you have ever bestowed on me
in body and in soul.
I praise and glorify you
that you condescended to assist me
with such patient fidelity,
and to defend me against all the assaults of my enemies.
Blessed be the hour in which
you were assigned me for my guardian,
my defender and my patron.
In acknowledgement and return
for all your loving ministries to me,
I offer you the infinitely precious
and noble heart of Jesus,
and firmly purpose to obey you henceforward,
and most faithfully to serve my God.

This is just one Catholic prayer out of hundreds offered to Angels...it and many like it, go waaay beyond what is acceptable...and however you try to word it there is an element of angel worship involved, and a form of devotion that only belongs to Jesus our Saviour.,,,but as the subject concerns Mary here is a prayer to her.

Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

I don't really need to comment...anyone who thinks this is an acceptable form of prayer has never read Isaiah 42-45.

 

[Zeek]

double post

 

[paul becke]

There is such a vast difference in asking friends to pray for you, and actually praying to Mary or Angels..here is an example:-

O most holy angel of God,
appointed by God to be my guardian,
I give you thanks for all the benefits
which you have ever bestowed on me
in body and in soul.
I praise and glorify you
that you condescended to assist me
with such patient fidelity,
and to defend me against all the assaults of my enemies.
Blessed be the hour in which
you were assigned me for my guardian,
my defender and my patron.
In acknowledgement and return
for all your loving ministries to me,
I offer you the infinitely precious
and noble heart of Jesus,
and firmly purpose to obey you henceforward,
and most faithfully to serve my God.

This is just one Catholic prayer out of hundreds offered to Angels...it and many like it, go waaay beyond what is acceptable...and however you try to word it there is an element of angel worship involved, and a form of devotion that only belongs to Jesus our Saviour.,,,but as the subject concerns Mary here is a prayer to her.

Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

I don't really need to comment...anyone who thinks this is an acceptable form of prayer has never read Isaiah 42-45.

Well Rhamiel, on the face of it, you are quite correct. I still marvel at the seeming audacity of the line in the Memorare of St Bernard to Our Lady, "Hail Our Life, Our Sweetness and Our Hope".

And yet, I can assure you, beyond all peradventure, that St Bernard was divinely inspired to pray those very words, that very prayer, in honour of Our Lady. This is a matter of personal experience to me, but I have also come to broadly understand the rationale behind it, and have commented on it in earlier thread.

With our amazingly paradoxical One God who is, at the same time, a Holy Trinity, we are the only mainstream religion whose God is a family; indeed, in a sense, the pattern of all our families.

It is arguable, on various counts, that women, generally, are by their nature and vocation, closer to God the Father in his eternal essence. "From the womb, before the Day-Star, I begot you." In which case, who closer to God, the Father, than Mary, the mother of God.

Mary is not, of course, a member of the Holy Trinity in her own nature, but like the rest of us, extended family by adoption. But consider, reflect, on her role as the human mother of the fully-human, fully divine Christ, above all, as she stood at the foot of the cross, watching her son die in protracted agony and shame and disgrace, while being jeered at by hateful creatures, whom he, himself, had empowered, indeed, continued to do so, until he drew his last breath. And she knew this. And that he was as innocent as a four-year old child.

If Jesus did not intend to signally honour his holy mother, on that basis alone, then we would surely have scant hope of sharing in the glory of heaven. Even so, it must sound mighty odd to non-Catholic ears!

 

[Zeek]

Well Rhamiel, on the face of it, you are quite correct. I still marvel at the seeming audacity of the line in the Memorare of St Bernard to Our Lady, "Hail Our Life, Our Sweetness and Our Hope".

And yet, I can assure you, beyond all peradventure, that St Bernard was divinely inspired to pray those very words, that very prayer, in honour of Our Lady. This is a matter of personal experience to me, but I have also come to broadly understand the rationale behind it, and have commented on it in earlier thread.

With our amazingly paradoxical One God who is, at the same time, a Holy Trinity, we are the only mainstream religion whose God is a family; indeed, in a sense, the pattern of all our families.

It is arguable, on various counts, that women, generally, are by their nature and vocation, closer to God the Father in his eternal essence. "From the womb, before the Day-Star, I begot you." In which case, who closer to God, the Father, than Mary, the mother of God.

Mary is not, of course, a member of the Holy Trinity in her own nature, but like the rest of us, extended family by adoption. But consider, reflect, on her role as the human mother of the fully-human, fully divine Christ, above all, as she stood at the foot of the cross, watching her son die in protracted agony and shame and disgrace, while being jeered at by hateful creatures, whom he, himself, had empowered, indeed, continued to do so, until he drew his last breath. And she knew this. And that he was as innocent as a four-year old child.

If Jesus did not intend to signally honour his holy mother, on that basis alone, then we would surely have scant hope of sharing in the glory of heaven. Even so, it must sound mighty odd to non-Catholic ears!

You can actually address me if you like Paul...I don't bite.

I sometimes wonder if those that confess their faith in the L-rd through Catholicism actually put any store in careful exegesis that is consistant and in line with the word of G-d...because it seems to me (and forgive me if this is a broad stroke of the brush) many are more concerned with upholding a Catholic view than a biblical one...it is as if they do not have the liberty to think for themselves and allow the Bible to speak to the issues at stake.

Instead what I have constatntly faced is a declaration of religious platitudes based in a common tradition that have evolved in such a way over centuries, that they often bear little resemblance to anything biblical and are adaptations of the thoughts and words of fallible men...I find it quite extraordinary.

Take for example this parting shot that you fire-off, Paul.

If Jesus did not intend to signally honour his holy mother, on that basis alone, then we would surely have scant hope of sharing in the glory of heaven. Even so, it must sound mighty odd to non-Catholic ears!

What I read here is a thinly disguised proclamation that declares if non-Catholics do not accord Mary the same sort of honour that Catholics do, then they are against Jesus' teachings and will ultimately not enter Heaven.

You are happy to state the 'blindingly obvious' (as you are on safe ground) that Mary is not part of the Trinity...but in actual fact the way Mary is addressed by some Catholics makes even this statement precarious.

However I believe there is some truth in the fact that Mary has not been honoured by non-Catholics...or even considered by us to any large degree...perhaps as a reaction against the way she has been promoted by Rome over the centuries...and there is a place to teach and understand more of her role as the L-rd's mother and the unique position she holds amongst women...but one can't learn this from Catholicism, because they have already proved they go beyond what is true and aceptable to others of us with an orthodox faith...and seem to insist on promoting unbiblical revelations, and according her the sort of honour that only G-d Himself can ever possibly receive.

 

[paul becke]

"If Jesus did not intend to signally honour his holy mother, on that basis alone, then we would surely have scant hope of sharing in the glory of heaven. Even so, it must sound mighty odd to non-Catholic ears!
​

What I read here is a thinly disguised proclamation that declares if non-Catholics do not accord Mary the same sort of honour that Catholics do, then they are against Jesus' teachings and will ultimately not enter Heaven."

No You've got it the wrong way round, Zazal. I meant to say that it is not, if we don't honour his mother, but if he doesn't, what chance would there be for us?

As regards the kind of siege mindset of Catholicism, partly because it has always been under siege by the forces of darkness, and partly because of the the iniquitous fallibility that has beset our pilgrim church from within, I'm inclined to agree with much of what you said.

However, what you missed that I was trying to convey to you, is that the Holy Spirit has enlightened our Church way beyond the plain, literal words of scripture, notably, in areas such as knowledge and understanding of the egregious status of Mary and Joseph (Patron of the Universal Church), who are barely mentioned in the scriptures. Catholicism is an exceptionally supernatural denomination of the Christian Church, as one might expect, given its ancient Christian provenance.

However, while you and I find it extraordinary to apply such titles to Our Lady (I, on the face of it, though, now, in no doubt as to God's approval), if you meditate on her role and her life, sharing, as she would have, so keenly in her son's sufferings, and the fact of our salvation having hinged upon her Fiat, I think it is easy to understand why God would not be jealous of those exorbitant-seeming titles. What's more, I doubt if there has ever been a canonized saint or even a devout Catholic, who did not find as a matter of personal experience, that God has give her a key role as our own personal, supernatural mother, the mother of each one of us, his 'other Christs' by adoption.

You have to understand that, while Our Lady is not a member of the Most Holy Trinity, they are still family, if extended via Christ's incarnation. And we can be sure, very close family. And families don't check their thinking about each other on the basis of canon law, literal exactitude, mathematical kind of precision. In God's eyes we cannot admire and praise his holy mother too much.

There are head-bangers who want to have Mary acknowledged as a member of the Most Holy Trinity, but God knows common sense will always prevails among Catholics in such matters, among all but that purblind few. Remember it was the laity and a few odd-bods such as Athanasius who saw off Aryanism; even though the clergy tend to have forgotten more than we have ever learned about the faith generally-speaking.

 

[MamaZ]

All His believers suffer Christs sufferings. But I do not need to focus on Mary or any Apparitions from Mary to know What Christ my Lord wants me to do. For believers in Him have the mind of Christ. He lives in us. He alone is my savior.

 

[Rhamiel]

Exactly.

When one looks into the Marion apparitions, two things become apparent...namely that they only appeal to those who already have a devotion to Mary beyond what is biblically orthodox, .

This reminds me of when Jesus was in Nazareth, He said that he was unable to preform miracles because of the lack of faith of the people

 

[Zeek]

This reminds me of when Jesus was in Nazareth, He said that he was unable to preform miracles because of the lack of faith of the people

I guess one day Rhamiel we will find out whether I have missed out because I have not believed the presentation of the theology concerning the elevation of Mary....or whether you have wasted much time pursuing something that has no basis in reality.

 

[Rhamiel]

I guess one day Rhamiel we will find out whether I have missed out because I have not believed the presentation of the theology concerning the elevation of Mary....or whether you have wasted much time pursuing something that has no basis in reality.

well that is the crux of the matter
either something wonderful that you have missed out on
or a grave grave mistake and waste of time on my part

 

[paul becke]

Remind us, Simon, was Basil, who lived in the early part of the fourth century, Non-Denominational?

You know the only real difference between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic churches, both of which recognise Basil as a saint, is political, don't you? Would you have been Non-Denominational, if you had lived in his day?

I have no gripe with Non-Denominational Christians; I just find it odd when one of you cite an authority who belonged to one of the most decidedly denominatonal and hierarchical churches, indeed, at a time when there was only the one Christian denomination.

Sorry to offend you, but it sounds like the Adversary has blind-sided you.