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Marian Apparitions...

JoabAnias

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That apparition caused Muslims to convert.

Yes a very many came to Christ thanks to Mary. She always leads to Jesus.

If we say Mary, she says God.

It's pretty simple: Christians honor Mary and the Saints because they are in Christ.

Jesus ascended into heaven but promised to be with us always, and we know that all these holy ones are reigning with him in heaven (cf. Heb. 12:22-24).

So in Christ we have fellowship with them, just as we have it with our fellow Christians who are still on earth. Like us, they are all members of the Body of Christ (I Cor.12).
 
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simonthezealot

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14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
 
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simonthezealot

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In regards to apparitions i would say that these are much more likely to be satanic deception than anything else.

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
 
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JoabAnias

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God made them and He is thier God. They worship the same God we do.


From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.

The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4).
The Great Heresies
 
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JoabAnias

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The word in the Bible for "saint" or "saints" is the word (hagios) also translated "sanctified" or "holy ones." The root word hazo, means "to venerate." Hagios means to be separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God.

Hagios is used of God (Lk 1:49; Acts 3:14; Mt 1:18, etc.). It is a word used of men and things (1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 2:5,9, etc.)

When Paul uses the word "saint" in the singular, he refers to a state into which God calls men with His grace. Phil 4:21 Give my greetings to every holy one (hagion) in Christ Jesus.

In its plural form, Paul uses the word to refer to all believers. For Paul, the word is not applied only to persons of exceptional holiness, nor to those having died characterized by an exceptional life of saintliness.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones (hagios) and members of the household of God,

Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.

Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus, ... and all the holy ones who are with them. 1

Cor 16:1 Now in regard to the collection for the holy ones, you also should do as I ordered the churches of Galatia.

1 Cor 16:15 I urge you, brothers--you know that the household of Stephanas is the firstfruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the holy ones--

It is Paul who calls all his fellow believers "saints," and not just the notably holy ones. Paul also uses the term for both those who are living and for those who are dead.

2 Thess 1:9-10 These (who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news) will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones (hagiois) and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 14-15 Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, "Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones (hagiais) to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed ..."

This practice of Paul corresponds to one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith: The Apostles Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints." Communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are or have been committed followers of Jesus Christ. In the eyes of God, in eternity, the distinction between His People who are "living" or who are "dead" is not at all important.

Mk 9:4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."
Lk 23:43 He replied to him (the crucified thief) "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Rom 12:5 ... so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.

The saints are presented to believers as role models whose lives are worthy to be imitated.

Heb 6:12 ... so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.
 
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simonthezealot

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The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4).
Here's a prime example...The calling upon Mary and her “Immaculate Heart” and the saying of the rosary as the ultimate and final means of saving souls flies in the face of such biblical truths as Acts 4:12 and 1 Timothy 2:5.

BTW i don't think you can link something that calls us heretics, you may want to edit that.
 
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addo

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I was thinking along the lines of a deception from the devil, perhaps. Does Matthew 24:23-24 apply here? What do you think, addo?
Matthew 24:23-24 seems to be applying to false Christs and prophets. What is a 'false Christ' and what is a 'propthet'?
 
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Zeek

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God made them and He is thier God. They worship the same God we do.


From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.

The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4).
The Great Heresies

Hi Joab,
I had a look at the Great Heresies site...and notice that Protestantism is in that list...interesting....but i will refrain from commenting on that for now (massive dose of non-conformist self-control :)).

I also saw this under the Heresies:-

Iconoclasm (7th and 8th Centuries)


This heresy arose when a group of people known as iconoclasts (literally, "icon smashers") appeared, who claimed that it was sinful to make pictures and statues of Christ and the saints, despite the fact that in the Bible, God had commanded the making of religious statues (Ex. 25:18–20; 1 Chr. 28:18–19), including symbolic representations of Christ (cf. Num. 21:8–9 with John 3:14).
If you actually look at the Scriptures that are wrenched from their context, you will discover (well maybe not you friend) their convoluted mis-use to justify the making of these images.

John 3:14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

The final outcome of this bronze serpent, was that it had to be destroyed as the people began to elevate it to a position of worship/veneration....hmmm now what does that remind me of?...Here is the Scripture which in the context of another thread on Mary and the Saints is very poignant.

2Kings 18:4He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan
(Just think, this Scripture better justifies the work of the Iconoclasts!!!)

My gripe/point, is not on whether the Iconoclasts were right or wrong...but rather to look at the way the practice has been commended on the basis of scriptural contortionisn....on top of that I would consider the way some of these images are used is inappropriate as they are often more like a talisman of luck and a warder off off evil, than a mere image to help focus ones faith. If this is an example of the mis-use of Scripture...then I expect it is endemic, and from some of my conversations with Believers of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, I have found nothing to calm this gathering wave of incredulity rising within my Spirit-man.
 
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Amylisa

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God directed Moses to make two angels to be part of the mercy seat. Interpreting things as has been debated about here, this would have been wrong. Obviously it was not wrong, since God said to do it.

The problem is not the image, it is what people do with it. I think we can all agree that in every denomination there are people who approach things properly and people who do not.
I once saw a man delivered of a religious spirit at a pentecostal church. He had made his Bible into an idol. I mean, the pastor asked him to set it down while he was being prayed for and the man couldn't put it down. It was eye opening to say the least.
 
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Zeek

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God directed Moses to make two angels to be part of the mercy seat. Interpreting things as has been debated about here, this would have been wrong. Obviously it was not wrong, since God said to do it.

The problem is not the image, it is what people do with it. I think we can all agree that in every denomination there are people who approach things properly and people who do not.
I once saw a man delivered of a religious spirit at a pentecostal church. He had made his Bible into an idol. I mean, the pastor asked him to set it down while he was being prayed for and the man couldn't put it down. It was eye opening to say the least.

Hi there,
I don't really have an argument with what you have written Amylisa...but maybe you might consider that those that have traded in icons...(and don't be mistaken, it is a huge trade), and those in authority in the Body of Messiah that have welcomed their out-put for hundreds of years, and given their blessing to their veneration, have in fact put an unnecessary stumbling block before millions of people, who for whatever reasons do not use them as intended...

To my mind, some people have made a huge mistake, and rather than perpetuate, justify and sanction it, people should rise up and say enough is enough, and get rid of the things that are unwise and more often than not a distraction and side-show to the main attraction...Jesus.

Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If we truly believe those that have died in the L-rd are watching us and rooting for us, then lets clean up our act and run unencumbered, and prove the grace of G-d being effective in our lives.
For some of us that means kicking unhelpful traditions and practices into touch, believing G-d and taking Him at His word.
 
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simonthezealot

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God directed Moses to make two angels to be part of the mercy seat. Interpreting things as has been debated about here, this would have been wrong. Obviously it was not wrong, since God said to do it.
God directed, nuff said.
 
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WarriorAngel

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To what?

Apparitions don't convict people the Holy Spirit does...

Just another case of usurping glory due God alone.

So you are telling us that if you helped someone convert by performing a miracle for them to become Christian - that you usurped God's power?

OR did Jesus NOT say - they would perform more miracles than He? More wonderous?
He gave them the 'performer' insignia - so to speak...

Because even faith of a mustard seed can move mountains.

So why should a message from heaven and the messenger being His Mother - be in ANY way usurping God's glory since they are going to GOD?

Care to explain how converting people to Christianity takes away from God when they are GOING TO GOD.... ?
 
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WarriorAngel

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Convert to what? Catholicism?

Out of the frying pan and into the fire, eh?
Christ established since 33 AD.
The world hated Him first, no doubt they hate His Church since it is His.
 
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