Mar 22: they are at it again

[Zanting]

That's ridiculous: Christ returning in the future is an obvious and vital gospel promise. It's part of the gospel news: we're sinners, we need forgiveness from God, and he provides that in His Son who will return, and could return at any moment.

Rather, futurism is an eschatological claim about the book of Revelation that it is a timetable or program for the last few decades of history. It's just not TRUE in the first place, see Revelation 1. But it also has a bunch of side effects.

* Covenant Amils see John as writing to comfort Christians ALREADY going through terrible tribulations in HIS generation. John explicitly wrote to Christians in HIS generation to obey his instructions. The very first paragraph states: "What must soon take place"... "because the time is near".
It's not only soon, but it is a message to be obeyed.
Revelation 1:3 says:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
How can John's generation of Christians obey this book if it is actually all about Christians 2000 years later? Futurists pile up absurdity upon absurdity.
* Futurists almost bring down the curses of Revelation on themselves by effectively removing these verses from the book! (We are not to remove anything from Revelation!) Futurists also ADD to the book by inserting 2000 years into this text when John specifically states that he wanted HIS generation to hear and obey his message as the Roman persecution crashed down on the heads of those early Christians.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as a book that then also applies to *any* generation of Christians that are suffering the persecution of corrupt governments and the temptation of worldly wealth, worldly philosophies, and worldly security. Revelation is a practical book of comfort to suffering Christians.
* Futurists just patronise today's suffering Christians by insisting that whatever is going on now or has gone on before, it is NOTHING compared to the 'tribulation' that is coming. (Again, this makes the book entirely irrelevant to John's generation and just does not square with an honest reading of John's stated intentions in Chapter 1!)

* Covenant Amils see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

* Covenant Amils use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* Futurists use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing futurists have said addresses the fundamental point that their literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied.

* Covenant Amils are more likely to witness to the saving power of Jesus Christ
* Futurists are often more keen to 'witness' to the lunacy of their end-times schemes and try to win the unconverted not just to Jesus, but to their particular end-times-tables before the person is even saved! As this guy even proudly admitted! How ironic and sad that this Christian talked more about the AntiChrist than his Lord and Saviour, the true Christ!
http://www.christianforums.com/t7638964-7/#post60524172

Thanks eclipsenow...your desciption of futurism cleared up my vague understanding of what it was. And I'ld have to admit that once upon a time that would have been my truth had I been a Christian, only because that is the teaching that I have always heard.

I am very reluctant to talk about my own personal experience, because it sounds so fantastic...but it is what humbled me and brought me to my knees seeking salvation and left me in tears for two days. The first day was all about realizing my own deception and misguided understanding and the forgiveness I needed from Jesus and the second day was for everyone else. It has been a little over a year now since that happened.

It has taken a while to sort through the meaning of everyhting that was revealed to me that day, and I don't remember a lot, because it happened so fast and was so fleeting, but I would have to say that I do not have a futurism perspective as you descibe it. I completely believe that the guidance of the Holy Spirit that fell upon me that day and left me with the desire to learn the truth and has led me to a new understanding. Since that day, I knew Jesus was real and that God is in control. That I have a spiritual bond with the Holy Spirit and can trust His guidance. I have learned much since then and still am.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

i stay clear of revelation as it dosnt make any sense to me. I believe there will be a literal millennium at the return of Christ, but I don't know how long that will be, or even if it is still within time.

 

[dysert]

i stay clear of revelation as it dosnt make any sense to me. I believe there will be a literal millennium at the return of Christ, but I don't know how long that will be, or even if it is still within time.

Even if you don't accept that the Millennium is 1000 years long, surely it must be within time. We have verses like:

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:5)
​

and

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
(Rev 20:7)
​

So it has an end and must therefore be within time.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Even if you don't accept that the Millennium is 1000 years long, surely it must be within time. We have verses like:

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:5)
​

and

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
(Rev 20:7)
​

So it has an end and must therefore be within time.

probably.

 

[Interplanner]

the release of Satan at its end, and the forecast of worsening conditions parallel to that is a reason why some readers think that the 'millenium' is a picture of history after the historic coming of Christ--after the resurrection and his ascension and declaration to be Lord and Christ, Acts 2.

--Inter

 

[peterlindner]

rev1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy

HEARKEN(listen); Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, SOME thirty, and SOME sixty, and SOME an hundred. 9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If you have ears to hear SUM 30, SUM 60, SUM 100=190
This Passover is 190 days from the Feast of TRUMPETS (sound)

 

[Steve Petersen]

rev1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy

HEARKEN(listen); Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, SOME thirty, and SOME sixty, and SOME an hundred. 9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If you have ears to hear SUM 30, SUM 60, SUM 100=190
This Passover is 190 days from the Feast of TRUMPETS (sound)

Passover this year is March 26. Trumpets is September 5. That is 163 days. How do you come up with 190?

 

[Interplanner]

It's not about finding such dates. JUSt read the thrread on the Triumphant Entry here at Eschatology.

--Inter

 

[peterlindner]

Passover this year is March 26. Trumpets is September 5. That is 163 days. How do you come up with 190?

September 17th 2012 is Tishrei 1
Passover begins on Nisan 14 (evening) March 25th 2013
Resurrection day is Nisan 16.
Tishrei 1 to Passover is 190 DAYS
Jehoiachin was released on the 25th (or the 27th). There are two accounts.

I'm not searching for abominations. I'm searching for resurrection.

 

[Steve Petersen]

When you said 'this year' I thought you meant 2013.

 

[peterlindner]

It's not about finding such dates. JUSt read the thrread on the Triumphant Entry here at Eschatology.

--Inter

When God reveals things it is a beautiful conversation. It is relationship. It is definitely what it is about for me. This is a deeper meaning to his word. God's plan happened according to times and dates in the past; and they are happening now.

People listening to angel babel will search for abominations. People that HEAR God will search for Good News; and it will be opened.

 

[peterlindner]

When you said 'this year' I thought you meant 2013.

YES I did mean this year. Tomorrow is March 25th (Passover). Resurrection day is Wednesday (March 27th).

 

[Steve Petersen]

But Passover to Trumpts in 2013 is only 163 days.

 

[peterlindner]

But Passover to Trumpts in 2013 is only 163 days.

As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.

 

[Strong in Him]

rev1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy

HEARKEN(listen); Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, SOME thirty, and SOME sixty, and SOME an hundred. 9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If you have ears to hear SUM 30, SUM 60, SUM 100=190
This Passover is 190 days from the Feast of TRUMPETS (sound)

You're the second person I've seen read an eschatalogical meaning into a parable. Jesus explained the meaning of the parable of the sower to his disciples. He didn't say anything about it referring to end times. And the parable doesn't say anything about either the Passover or the feast of trumpets.

 

[peterlindner]

You're the second person I've seen read an eschatalogical meaning into a parable. Jesus explained the meaning of the parable of the sower to his disciples. He didn't say anything about it referring to end times. And the parable doesn't say anything about either the Passover or the feast of trumpets.

I would sure enjoy conversing with the other person that is digging into the parables.

You are one of many with ears that can't hear. Jesus spoke of His hour. End times? I'm looking for resurrection times.

The Cana Wedding
The Temple taking 46 years to build and 3 days to rebuild
The Sower

All of these parables speak of resurrection day.(and not Martha's off in the distance resurrection day).

 

[RDKirk]

rev1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy

HEARKEN(listen); Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, SOME thirty, and SOME sixty, and SOME an hundred. 9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If you have ears to hear SUM 30, SUM 60, SUM 100=190
This Passover is 190 days from the Feast of TRUMPETS (sound)

Seriously?

You realize the New Testament was written in koine Greek, right?

The Greek for "some" is ει (heis), pronounced "hice" like "nice."

The Greek for "sum" is τιμη (time), pronounced "tee-may’."

Those two words are not homonyms in the original Greek or in any other language, either.

And none of it has anything to do with passover or the Feast of the Trumpets.

 

[peterlindner]

Seriously?

You realize the New Testament was written in koine Greek, right?

The Greek for "some" is ει (heis), pronounced "hice" like "nice."

The Greek for "sum" is τιμη (time), pronounced "tee-may’."

Those two words are not homonyms in the original Greek or in any other language, either.

And none of it has anything to do with passover or the Feast of the Trumpets.

Seriously, you do realize that Jesus said we will do greater things than He did? Jesus healed the sick and RAISED THE DEAD.

God knew the exact time, place, person, and language that the deeper things of scripture were going to be revealed. He called Abraham alone. He would have spoke to him in Abraham's language. The 'sower' parable wasn't for Abraham. It is for those that have ears to hear. It is for me.
Hear & trumpets go together. Regardless of the vocabulary (enjoying that you found that SUM and TIME are linked in the concordance) there are still 190 pieces of fruit. Trumpets is the beginning of a year. This passover is 190 pieces from hearing the trumpet.
What does present truth mean? The word as I understand it today.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are one of many with ears that can't hear.

I don't think so.

Jesus spoke of His hour. End times? I'm looking for resurrection times.

The Cana Wedding
The Temple taking 46 years to build and 3 days to rebuild
The Sower

All of these parables speak of resurrection day.(and not Martha's off in the distance resurrection day).

1.The wedding at Cana is not a parable - it was an actual event; the first miracle that Jesus performed.
2.The temple taking 46 years to build is not a parable. Jesus was asked for a sign and said, "destroy thi temple and I will raise it again in 3 days". The Jews took that literally and thought he meant the physical temple; he was referring to his body and prophesying the resurrection, but it's not a parable.
3.Jesus explained to his disciples what this parable meant - the meaning is written in Scripture. He is not speaking of the resurrection.

 

[peterlindner]

I don't think so.



1.The wedding at Cana is not a parable - it was an actual event; the first miracle that Jesus performed.
2.The temple taking 46 years to build is not a parable. Jesus was asked for a sign and said, "destroy thi temple and I will raise it again in 3 days". The Jews took that literally and thought he meant the physical temple; he was referring to his body and prophesying the resurrection, but it's not a parable.
3.Jesus explained to his disciples what this parable meant - the meaning is written in Scripture. He is not speaking of the resurrection.

1. The wedding of Cana is an event that happened AND had deeper meaning just like a parable. Jesus said his hour was not yet come and then went on to tell us about his hour. YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE EARS TO HEAR.

2 The temple took 46x24=1104 (year is as a day Ezekiel) 1104+3=1107 This passover is 1107 days from the beginning of the year 5,770 (Nisan 1).

3. There is a reason Jesus gave an exact number to the fruit. YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ears TO hear (shouting won't help).

It must be strange defending the WORD from a point of view of trying to get less out of it. How many numbers must you sweep under the rug if they don't have a meaning? Yet your whole church will be behind you calling you a good soldier for God.