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Mar 22: they are at it again

hiscosmicgoldfish

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So you are presuming you will know who they are and when they have started teaching. You don't even like the book of Revelation. Why do you think the tribulation started on March 22nd and not some time ago? Is it because of the Daniel's Timeline thing? He starts with incorrect information which invalidates his outcome.

i dont like revelation because i dont think it is perfect, like daniel, and most of it is very obscure. my natural mind thinks that is is a typical apocalyptic writing in that genre, but it might contain some truth, especially about the mark of the beast.
what is the incorrect info in the daniel timeline? he uses the 6 day war as a key to unlock the end times. as 1947 and 1967-8 both had lunar tetrads, and there are more lunar tetrads in 2014-15, i suspect that something will happen with israel around that time.
they predicted the date of 22nd march a long time ago, as the start of the trib. it was significant to the powers that be also, as they sent obama to israel on that date, despite it not being the best time for that.
they did predict a lot of stuff for 22nd, like abomination, flood, and fleeing, but that is because they were expecting a repeat of what happened in the past. the flood was only symbolic for something in rev. the fleeing might have been about 70 AD.
people say that it is all rubbish now, because the predictions werent met, without looking at the rest of the evidence that the daniel timeline is true, and i think it is.
i think people have been schooled in dispensationalism, which tags with it that the temple must be rebuilt, and an antichrist is to claim to be god.. i've never believed any of that.. no one would worship obama; can you imagine the entire muslim world worshipping obama.. silly.
 
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RDKirk

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i think people have been schooled in dispensationalism, which tags with it that the temple must be rebuilt, and an antichrist is to claim to be god.. i've never believed any of that.. no one would worship obama; can you imagine the entire muslim world worshipping obama.. silly.

But then, ask yourself why--some people are being sucked into the most absurd and bizarre concepts about Obama in particular? There is absolutely nothing negative that can be said about Obama, regardless how bizarre, that the same set of people won't believe instantly from any source without the slightest degree of validation--and then repeat it as gospel fact. This is called "Obama Derangement Syndrome."

It has no place showing up in theology.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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But then, ask yourself why--some people are being sucked into the most absurd and bizarre concepts about Obama in particular? There is absolutely nothing negative that can be said about Obama, regardless how bizarre, that the same set of people won't believe instantly from any source without the slightest degree of validation--and then repeat it as gospel fact. This is called "Obama Derangement Syndrome."

It has no place showing up in theology.

then i've been sucked into obama derangement syndrome as well.
 
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pgp_protector

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You must be kidding, I can't think of anything positive to say about him.

Can't or Will Not?

Loving his wife isn't Positive?
Loving his Kids isn't Positive?
You Honestly Can't Think of ANYTHING?
 
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RDKirk

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then i've been sucked into obama derangement syndrome as well.

Then that's an inability--no, a refusal--to distinguish between fact and fiction, the very definition of prejudice.

Satan can use that to lead you anywhere.
 
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eclipsenow

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I hope I would NEVER need to ask anything form you "Eclipse". Most of the non-Christians I know are not half as cruel and vindictive as what I have seen from you consistently here in a month and a half.
1. You know you were quoting PreachingChristCrucified there when you addressed me? I nearly missed it because of that.

2. You're the one who pushed these movies and weird theories in a public forum. You're the one who acted so condescendingly to the 'scoffers'. You're the one who started taking making cheap character attacks at my avatar. (An eclipse spreads darkness). So don't blame me if you are now reaping what you sowed.

You keep referring to the OLD TESTAMENT LAW? DO YOU LIVE BY THE WHOLE LAW? If you do not, then you are a hypocrite. I KNOW you do not as you claim Christ, therefore you indeed show what you are.
? I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Go ahead and talk about your "defense of the truth"...... as you RIP into others with others, after they who you accuse have asked for your forgiveness.
But you're already making defences for the video's and appear to be moving on to another prediction about the times in which you live? That begs the question: are you really re-evaluating the foolish lies you were pushing, and thinking through the whole futurist approach? If you are, and have genuinely expressed some change of heart that I have missed, I apologise unreservedly.

I'll let you all know if I see Bethwhite so you can go stone her. I will try to join her so you can get us both at one time if it pleases you. You would think a comment or two about praying for her or forgiving her would be in order.
If there's any demonstration of an attitude of genuine change, then I would be only too glad to forgive and welcome her back. But until such time, both you and she are wolves in sheep's clothing as far as I am concerned. Date - setting futurists appear to be on a mission to make the gospel as in-credible as they can!


Not so. Hey, Christ would have done the same thing......right? Amazing.
He did confront heresies and false teachers and called them whitewashed tombs. He also welcomed back the truly repentant. I am trying to demonstrate both the seriousness of what you have done, to help develop your thinking on the misguided nature of futurism and the damage it can do to Christian credibility, as well as offer an olive branch. Remember, you and I also have some personal stuff to deal with because you've never apologised for your 'Eclipse' character attack junk either.

Do you say that to people you LOVE? Did Christ not say to LOVE the Brethren? Even if someone is put out of your company the word says "admonish them like a Brother/Sister.
Dude, you're the one who started the character attacks. When you're ready to apologise for accusing me of choosing an eclipse because I like to 'spread darkness', then we can move forward.

2 Thessalonians

{3:14} And if
any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man,
and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

{3:15} Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish
them as a brother.


The "Grace" you all show is deplorable. Fine examples of the OPPOSITE of forgiveness, mercy, and LOVE.
This is a public online forum where you publicly pushed lies. Public responses are required. I would behave completely differently if you were a misguided friend from church in a more private matter.

Anyway, once again, your patronising and spiritually superior manner while pushing your movies did not really help. Are you sorry for some of that as well? Remember calling us all 'scoffers'? Were we right to 'scoff?'

To those of you who love, forgive, and instruct in kindness and wisdom; God be With You All; as He will be.
I'm happy to forgive, but not so happy to enable this date-setting foolishness. The moment I hear you are genuinely going to stop trying to protect those ridiculous video's and demonstrate that you can see how utterly misguided and ridiculous they are, I'm more than happy to laugh at the whole thing and put it behind us and move on. So far I'm only hearing excuses for them.
 
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eclipsenow

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Well said Maranatha, well said. You must also remember Jeremiah was not received very well by the teachers and learned people of his day. And Christ said something about putting "new wine into old bottles." I wonder how some of these fine Christians will react to the two witnesses when they begin teaching.
Jeremiah wasn't well received because he taught the truth of God.

Marantha wasn't well received because he was spiritually superior and patronising, called us all names, was condescending, and then on top of it all, was demonstrably and completely WRONG and shown to be pushing outright LIES!

Suffering for the TRUTH?

Suffering for a smug attitude while pushing LIES?

There's a difference. ;) :doh:
 
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Zanting

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then i've been sucked into obama derangement syndrome as well.

Sorry, but I believe you have...I don't like the guy, but it has been pointed out and it is very true that all this stuff has been said before about previous Presidents. I can remember when people were convinced that Henry Kissinger was the antichrist using name numerology somehow to get (666)...these accusations have been around a long time, and not just against American politicians...and always with some form of evidence from scripture, current events and their behaviour.
 
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eclipsenow

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Sorry, but I believe you have...I don't like the guy, but it has been pointed out and it is very true that all this stuff has been said before about previous Presidents. I can remember when people were convinced that Henry Kissinger was the antichrist using name numerology somehow to get (666)...these accusations have been around a long time, and not just against American politicians...and always with some form of evidence from scripture, current events and their behaviour.
This kind of futurism really is getting a bit tired, don't you think?
 
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eclipsenow

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Who is the anti-Christ?

Playing ‘spot the anti-Christ’ has been a favourite past time of many Christians, especially since Hollywood produced the Omen movies. However, I’m convinced the burning urgency many have about identifying an individual anti-Christ is misplaced.

Everything the entire Bible says about "antichrist":

1 John 2:18
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

John clearly sees this literary figure of an antichrist as a metaphor. Notice how he says 'such a man is the antichrist'. If there were a real antichrist, surely he would have kept that specific and said 'an antichrist much like the REAL antichrist'. But he just says ANY man who denies that Jesus is the Christ is THE antichrist. I've added capital letters to highlight this below.


1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is THE antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of THE antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even NOW IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD.

2 John 1:7
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and THE antichrist.

To me that's generic descriptions of many, many, many people. I read this as saying the spirit of antichrist has always been with us and that there is no special antichrist period we are waiting for.

I don't think there are any prophecies about an AntiChrist.

1. The Beasts in Revelation.
John's "beasts" are a symbolic amalgamation of Daniel's beasts. He takes bits and pieces of the 4 beasts of Daniel and welds them together into one super-beast. Daniel's vision is broken down into a specific kingdom by kingdom prophecy: John's apocalyptic writing doesn't do any such thing. That is because it's a sermon, not a timetable. It's generic writing for all ages. John is in effect saying that *any* time worldy governments persecute God's people they are a beast. It's generic writing describing *any* government that sets itself up against Christians, not a *specific* description of any one specific event. Also please consider that John does not use the term Anti-Christ here.

2. The Dragon of Revelation 12.
The Dragon is Satan, and this scene is where Satan tries to persecute Mary and kill Jesus, the incarnate son of God. These few Chapters are a gospel recap: the story so far. They are not prophetic so much as a gospel tract within Revelation to make some statements about the infallibility of God's plans. The lady with the 12 stars runs do the desert as God's people have done in exodus and God's prophets have done in times of persecution. It's the language of seeking refuge. God gives his church periods of refuge in the terrible persecution of these Last Days (since Acts 2 and counting...)

3. The man of lawlessness.
As my good mate Dr Greg Clarke says:

“But is there going to be one mega-evil ruler who will deceive the world and lead millions astray and do things like brand ‘666’ on their foreheads?
Probably not. There are passages in the Bible, which talk about a particular being that is Christ's foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.”

The devil you know | The Briefing

Or try Luke Woodhouse:
To explain this present spiritual reality in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul draws a picture of the last days, when the man known as ‘lawlessness’ will be exposed. On that day, rebellion at its highest magnitude will be revealed for all to see. Comparisons with ‘lawless’ figures over history have often been distractions for Christians, in that they miss the picture Paul sketches. But comparisons should not be totally dismissed. The global outrage at figures like Adolf Hitler is a rare opportunity to see the secret power of lawlessness brought out into the open and examined. It is a moment where the whole world stops and notices anarchy with its disguise removed. It's a glimpse of hell.
Getting refocused on the return of Jesus | The Briefing

Or Try this 5 minute video by the Dean of St Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney, Phillip Jensen.
Antichrist: Who Is He? | Video | Phillip Jensen

So basically I just feel sad for Christians obsessed with tracking down one 'antiChrist' figure when there are *clearly* many! I feel sad for futurists who see Revelation as some sort of future timetable instead of a generic sermon about trusting God in these Last Days, of 2000 years and counting. I feel sad that so many modern evangelicals have abandoned the Covenant Theology Amil position of the great Reformation thinkers. Last Days cults are a dime a dozen, and Christians that become obsessed with all their (contradictory) last days timetables, whether Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, Pre-Mil, Post-Mil, and whatever, are often fair game for cults. It's just sad.
 
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Zanting

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This kind of futurism really is getting a bit tired, don't you think?

I have to be honest in that I'm not completely sure what futurism means...

I sure don't believe we should be pointing fingers at someone as being the antichrist...no...nor predicting dates for Jesus return. He will return on Gods timetable...we should be about our fathers business, keep our lamps full and be ready to be called home whenever and however that may be.
 
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eclipsenow

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You missed a lot of scripture that tells about the antichrist figure.

Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Revelation and others all mention him and describe him.
These prophets describe a bunch of different things and figures and people, but Daniel in particular describes Antiochus Epiphanes the Greek who conquered Israel and abolished the sacrifice. Revelation doesn't even use the term antichrist, but instead refers to beast governments: any government that persecutes its people and especially God's people. It's not prescribing the future but describing the Last Days generally. There are plenty of candidates for 'beast' governments: John takes a special effort to combine the various beasts of Daniel to create a symbol for generic evil, not a particular kingdom.
 
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eclipsenow

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The final beast has one "mouth" assigned to it and that "mouth" is who blasphemes God.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Worldly philosophies backed by tyrannical governments.
 
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eclipsenow

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futurism is that christ returns in the future, not the past.

That's ridiculous: Christ returning in the future is an obvious and vital gospel promise. It's part of the gospel news: we're sinners, we need forgiveness from God, and he provides that in His Son who will return, and could return at any moment.

Rather, futurism is an eschatological claim about the book of Revelation that it is a timetable or program for the last few decades of history. It's just not TRUE in the first place, see Revelation 1. But it also has a bunch of side effects.

* Covenant Amils see John as writing to comfort Christians ALREADY going through terrible tribulations in HIS generation. John explicitly wrote to Christians in HIS generation to obey his instructions. The very first paragraph states: "What must soon take place"... "because the time is near".
It's not only soon, but it is a message to be obeyed.
Revelation 1:3 says:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
How can John's generation of Christians obey this book if it is actually all about Christians 2000 years later? Futurists pile up absurdity upon absurdity.
* Futurists almost bring down the curses of Revelation on themselves by effectively removing these verses from the book! (We are not to remove anything from Revelation!) Futurists also ADD to the book by inserting 2000 years into this text when John specifically states that he wanted HIS generation to hear and obey his message as the Roman persecution crashed down on the heads of those early Christians.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as a book that then also applies to *any* generation of Christians that are suffering the persecution of corrupt governments and the temptation of worldly wealth, worldly philosophies, and worldly security. Revelation is a practical book of comfort to suffering Christians.
* Futurists just patronise today's suffering Christians by insisting that whatever is going on now or has gone on before, it is NOTHING compared to the 'tribulation' that is coming. (Again, this makes the book entirely irrelevant to John's generation and just does not square with an honest reading of John's stated intentions in Chapter 1!)

* Covenant Amils see it as an incredibly PRACTICAL book for all Christians in all ages. It encourages them to not give into suffering and refuse to follow the worldly short-term gains of materialism and worldly power and success and sensuality.
* Futurists make it irrelevant to all but the last generation.

* Covenant Amils see Revelation as clear symbolic sermons that interpret themselves according to other symbols in the bible, and are applicable to all Christians in all situations.
* Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

* Covenant Amils use a consistent symbolic hermeneutic.
* Futurists use an inconsistent 'literal' hermeneutic which contradicts itself so frequently the system implodes. Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not? Is the book literal or not? Nothing futurists have said addresses the fundamental point that their literal hermeneutic is inconsistently applied.

* Covenant Amils are more likely to witness to the saving power of Jesus Christ
* Futurists are often more keen to 'witness' to the lunacy of their end-times schemes and try to win the unconverted not just to Jesus, but to their particular end-times-tables before the person is even saved! As this guy even proudly admitted! How ironic and sad that this Christian talked more about the AntiChrist than his Lord and Saviour, the true Christ!
http://www.christianforums.com/t7638964-7/#post60524172
 
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