Mainline Protestant and Evangelical denominations both declining, how do we change that?

[aiki]

So what are you saying, Aiki? Would you like to go back to the days where you weren't allowed to be present for a full church service until after your baptism?

I take your broader point, but I am not sure what that looks like in practice, in your mind.

It looks like individual believers evangelizing within their own social spheres and bringing their family, friends and neighbors to Christ and then incorporating them into the local community of believers. The modern Church has this quite backward, inviting the lost to participate in worship of a God they are in rebellion to, and listening to the teaching of spiritual truth to which they are largely blind and deaf. The lost cannot fellowship with believers on a spiritual level and we should not give them cause to think they can by encouraging their involvement in our spiritual practices.

 

[FireDragon76]

In many cases, those things which make Christianity morally and spiritually distinct from the surrounding culture are fading from much of Protestantism.

Can leaven be separated from dough? Maybe Christianity shouldn't be all that distinctive from the culture? Especially because western culture has been shaped so heavily by it?

 

[PhantomGaze]

Yes, Jesus loved and healed people. But he also harshly criticized the hypocritical, cast the money-changers out of the temple, and warned constantly of the danger of failing to enter into God's kingdom. He also told those he healed, "Go and sin no more." All of these things required that Jesus make moral judgments of others. In fact, it was Jesus who said,

I like that story... that was after the Pharisees were riling people up to stone a woman according to their law. Then Jesus wrote in the sand and said "let those who have no sin throw the first stone". Everyone walked away. Jesus told her to sin no more AFTER he had defended her and shown her love. Too bad we Christians aren't like this nowadays.

Says who? Just because people have grown comfortable with compromise doesn't mean God's mandate for the Church dissolves.

Am I reading you right? You still think drums are evil? I thought that kind of legalism disappeared after the Jesus People movement.

Conviction of the truth, yes. And that truth is found in the Gospel which is revealed in the pages of the Bible.

So it's not your job to convict people, it's the Spirit's.

No, I am going to abide by the clear teaching of Scripture, recognizing that the Holy Spirit will always act in accord with what God has declared is true and has commanded of us in His word.

The "clear teaching of scripture" that every denomination believes in, but every denomination thinks says a different thing... clearly. ...that "clear teaching of scripture"?

Basically what I am hearing here, is that the Holy Spirit draws someone in... and you tell them to get out because they don't have it all together yet. And that's acting "in accord" with God's word?

But the Church, the Bride of Christ, has no fellowship, no communion, with the lost because they are "dead in trespasses and sins" and "enemies in their minds toward God by their wicked works." The Church must evangelize the lost and make disciples of them as God has commanded in His word, but inviting the lost into the fellowship of believers while they are still lost goes totally contrary to the explicit command of Scripture.

So when Jesus hangs out with sinners, and rejects those who are constantly reminding those people that they're sinners, what does that look like to you?

By the way, I like that you're citing bible verses, but it doesn't look to me like most of the verses you cited even support your argument.

 

[aiki]

I like that story... that was after the Pharisees were riling people up to stone a woman according to their law.

Uh huh.

Then Jesus wrote in the sand and said "let those who have no sin throw the first stone". Everyone walked away. Jesus told her to sin no more AFTER he had defended her and shown her love. Too bad we Christians aren't like this nowadays.

I'm afraid you're speaking for yourself here. I certainly don't jump on the sinner about their sin straight off. Do you? Of course, just like Jesus, I don't ignore their sin, either.

Am I reading you right? You still think drums are evil? I thought that kind of legalism disappeared after the Jesus People movement.

Drums are evil? No. But it's...telling that this is what you assumed I thought. I don't think believers who prefer not to have drums as part of their worship are any more "legalistic" than those who insist there must be drums.

The "clear teaching of scripture" that every denomination believes in, but every denomination thinks says a different thing... clearly. ...that "clear teaching of scripture"?

Strawman. There are central tenets of the Christian faith that most, if not all, Protestant evangelical denominations agree on. It is a distortion of the facts to say that in regard to these central tenets that "every denomination thinks/says a different thing."

Basically what I am hearing here, is that the Holy Spirit draws someone in... and you tell them to get out because they don't have it all together yet.

You hear what you want to hear, I guess. This isn't at all what I've written, however.

So when Jesus hangs out with sinners, and rejects those who are constantly reminding those people that they're sinners, what does that look like to you?

Jesus "hung out with sinners"? What does that mean, exactly? Did he just goof off and party while he was with them? Hardly. I can't think of a single instance in any of the Gospels where Jesus was described as doing any such thing. Now, Christ's enemies, the Pharisees, were saying he was a winebibber and glutton and that he was hanging out with sinners (implying that he was partaking in their sinful practices) but I don't think they were, as his enemies, likely giving an accurate portrayal of Jesus, do you?

Where does Jesus reject those who are reminding sinners of their sin? And if he did reject them, was it merely because they were doing so, or because they were doing so hypocritically? In the New Testament, I see Paul, James, Jude, John and Peter all reminding sinners of their sin - sometimes very harshly. Jesus did the same. Is it, then, wrong to do so? Obviously not. What is wrong is to condemn someone else's sin when one is guilty of the very same sin (see Ro. 2).

By the way, I like that you're citing bible verses, but it doesn't look to me like most of the verses you cited even support your argument.

Well, simply saying this is how it looks to you doesn't by any means prove that it is so. A bald assertion by itself proves nothing. Can you show that my cited verses don't support my argument? If not, then your comment above is mere opinion rather than fact.

 

[FireDragon76]

"Reminding sinners of their sins" often comes across as condemnation, judgment, and even lobbying to take away peoples civil rights. I just don't see Jesus on the side of that kind of "reminding sinners of their sin".

 

[dzheremi]

Can leaven be separated from dough? Maybe Christianity shouldn't be all that distinctive from the culture? Especially because western culture has been shaped so heavily by it?

"Just as it is impossible to be at the same moment both a plant and a seed, so it is impossible for us to be surrounded by worldly honor and at the same time to bear heavenly fruit." -- Amma Syncletica (4th century Desert Mother of Egypt)

To have a culture shaped by Christianity does not mean anything if the culture itself does not and will not recognize that anymore, so it has no effect on the way that it operates. Egypt was shaped by Christianity, too, for many, many centuries, and its influence can still be found in various aspects (e.g., the Sham el Nessim festival). That does not make the society as a whole any more Christian as a result.

We in the West live in post-Christian societies, for the most part. The exceptions are generally tiny and isolated, and at best a mixed bag (e.g., Malta, which is a kind of best case scenario in terms of stated belief, since 95% report a belief in God, yet Sunday Mass attendance has dropped by 1% every year since 1982).

 

[GillDouglas]

I'm not so sure about that. It was other Christians at university who pointed me to being involved with a local church, where I had never been a churchgoer before. I'll be forever grateful for that. (I was also raised by lapsed Christians).

God can use any situation imaginable to bring out ones conversion. Thanks for your sharing a bit of your testimony.

 

[GillDouglas]

"Reminding sinners of their sins" often comes across as condemnation, judgment, and even lobbying to take away peoples civil rights. I just don't see Jesus on the side of that kind of "reminding sinners of their sin".

I believe that the reminding of sin is imperative for the believer, and Jesus is certainly on that side of the argument. (Matthew 18:15-19) For the unbeliever, they need the supernatural work of the Spirit upon their heart before any sort of reminding will have any affect.

 

[hedrick]

I believe that the reminding of sin is imperative for the believer, and Jesus is certainly on that side of the argument. (Matthew 18:15-19) For the unbeliever, they need the supernatural work of the Spirit upon their heart before any sort of reminding will have any affect.

I don't doubt that the Church sometimes needs to do discipline. My very liberal church has done it a few times. But this passage isn't about "reminding of sin." It's how to deal with someone who "sins against you." That is, it's about dealing with an offense of one church member against the other. The same kind of situation as 1 Cor 6:1.

 

[hedrick]

Jesus "hung out with sinners"? What does that mean, exactly? Did he just goof off and party while he was with them? Hardly. I can't think of a single instance in any of the Gospels where Jesus was described as doing any such thing. Now, Christ's enemies, the Pharisees, were saying he was a winebibber and glutton and that he was hanging out with sinners (implying that he was partaking in their sinful practices) but I don't think they were, as his enemies, likely giving an accurate portrayal of Jesus, do you?

"Hang out" is a bit imprecise. Jesus was apparently known for eating with sinners, but "hang out" suggests something repeated and more unstructured than was probably the case. Jesus seems to have spent most of his time preaching and healing. I doubt he was "hanging out" with anyone, saint or sinner. However for Pharisees it would have been offensive to have table fellowship with sinners, and it appears that he actually did that. See Mat 9:9, Mark 7:37, Luke 15:1.

One difficulty here, of course, is knowing just what is meant by "sinner." In addition to Jesus' emphasis on God's grace -- which led him to eat with actual sinners -- Jesus also disagreed with common Jewish opinion about who were sinners. It appears that he didn't accept many of the legal interpretations of the Pharisees. One common impact of those was to cause large classes of people for whom it was impractical to obey those interpretations to be rejected as "sinners."

 

[hedrick]

"Reminding sinners of their sins" often comes across as condemnation, judgment, and even lobbying to take away peoples civil rights. I just don't see Jesus on the side of that kind of "reminding sinners of their sin".

Jesus reminded plenty of people of their sins. He spoke lots about judgement. However the kinds of sins he reminded people of weren't the things that most Christians think they need to remind people of. Here's my summary from Matthew:

7 uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit
7 reject Jesus and message, no faith, etc
2 failing to forgive
2 hyperbole (call someone fool, fail to amputate)
2 refuse to repent
1 going through broad gate
1 seekign to save your life
1 speaking against Holy Spirit
1 being evil rather than righteous
1 causing a child to stumble
1 shut others out of kingdom
1 hypocrites
1 mistreat others

 

[PhantomGaze]

I'm afraid you're speaking for yourself here. I certainly don't jump on the sinner about their sin straight off. Do you? Of course, just like Jesus, I don't ignore their sin, either.

So why is it we can't include homosexuals in anything until they're 'properly sterilized' of their sin? Why is it you are defending their castigation and outright exclusion? Because to "jump on them" seems to be very in vogue with Christians nowadays, and you seem to want to defend that mentality. Are you saying you can agree that we should be kind and welcoming toward them BEFORE, and whether or not they decide to change their ways?

Drums are evil? No. But it's...telling that this is what you assumed I thought. I don't think believers who prefer not to have drums as part of their worship are any more "legalistic" than those who insist there must be drums.

Then was it rock n roll you meant? Which one wasn't the debate over about, and did you refer to as "compromise"?

Strawman. There are central tenets of the Christian faith that most, if not all, Protestant evangelical denominations agree on. It is a distortion of the facts to say that in regard to these central tenets that "every denomination thinks/says a different thing."

This is a strawman on your part actually. You are very aware that I was not talking about different denominations disagreeing about the central tenets of Christianity, but if you're talking about the "clear teaching of scripture", it's obviously not always clear as different denominations have a myriad of interpretations about other important topics. Similarly, the "clear teaching of scripture" I highly doubt tells christians to be insensitive jerks to people and stand over them as if we're their mother nagging them about what they do wrong. Conviction of the job of the Holy Spirit. You are not the Holy Spirit. Pretending to be is blasphemy.

You hear what you want to hear, I guess. This isn't at all what I've written, however.

Oh really, because this sounds exactly like what you're describing to me. Is there anything that you would do differently?

Now, Christ's enemies, the Pharisees, were saying he was a winebibber and glutton and that he was hanging out with sinners (implying that he was partaking in their sinful practices) but I don't think they were, as his enemies, likely giving an accurate portrayal of Jesus, do you?

Of "partaking in their sinful practices" obviously not, but he didn't spend his time with the pious. He spent his time with thugs, and tax collectors, and the lower folk that the religious folk thought were scum. Kind of like homosexuals nowadays that many people treat like scum.

Well, simply saying this is how it looks to you doesn't by any means prove that it is so. A bald assertion by itself proves nothing. Can you show that my cited verses don't support my argument? If not, then your comment above is mere opinion rather than fact.

Can you show that they actually support it? If not, than you haven't an argument at all just random semi-related bible verses.

 

[mukk_in]

It is an oft discussed subject that mainline Protestant denominations are declining and losing members. Evangelical denominations are also declining in recent years. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical denomination in the United States with 15 million members, is declining similarly as the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the US, the United Methodist Church with 7.2 million members.

The Southern Baptist Convention lost 1 million members.
https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WUg5mLSJmlI

The United Methodist Church, in the US, has also lost members. In 2011, the UMC lost 72,000 members.
2011 numbers show U.S. members still sliding - The United Methodist Church

It's possible that people have been moving away from organized religion for some time. This may not mean that they've abandoned Christ. It could just mean that they're seeking out smaller fellowships.

 

[lesliedellow]

Personally, I believe a lot has to do with moving away from a more traditional liturgical style of worship. The seeker service is nice for new Christians, but it has been shown that younger (age) Christians are yearning for a deeper more spiritual worship, not just a current song and religion-lite sermon.

That is what happens when the marketing men take control, and start running the Church as if it was a commercial organisation, bent upon increasing sales at any cost.

The irony is, of course, that they end up turning the Church into a pale reflection of the secular world, and who needs a pale reflection, when the genuine article is freely available?

 

[dzheremi]

That is what happens when the marketing men take control, and start running the Church as if it was a commercial organisation, bent upon increasing sales at any cost.

The irony is, of course, that they end up turning the Church into a pale reflection of the secular world, and who needs a pale reflection, when the genuine article is freely available?

This is a point I've heard several thinkers across the Christian spectrum make (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.): When their churches look so much like the world, most people who might otherwise be active Christians tend to decide that they'd just as soon stay away and get the same style of 'fellowship' by hanging out with friends in a completely secular environment, rather than continuing to pretend as though it's somehow necessary to do so in a particular building for an hour every Sunday with people they might not even actually like being around. It's sad, of course, but when so much of the Christian or formerly-Christian world has completely lost the concept of koinonia (Christian fellowship; communion), it's to be expected. Call it the downside of the 'big tent', dumb-it-down, light-on-doctrinal-absolutes style of Christianity that most churches have been peddling for some time. When you make it so easy to come and go, people will do just that.

 

[Dave-W]

What sets us apart from the world is the Manifest presence of God.

But that is sorely lacking across the board.

 

[Archivist]

I can remember when I was young and would be going to church with my parents pretty much every driveway would be empty on Sunday mornings because almost everyone would be in church. The few houses that had cars out front belonged to our Catholic neighbors who attended church on Saturdays. Now when I am heading off to church it seems that most people are home. Sad.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I talked to a minister who lamented declining attendance that threatens his church's financial sustainability and very existence.

I talked to a Mason who lamented that young people aren't becoming Masons so much and his lodge is dwindling in number.

I talked to a man closing his bowling alley because there aren't so many bowling leagues any more that made his business profitable.

I talked to a Rotarian complaining that his once 225 member club was down to 125.

I believe a contributing factor to all of these events is a changing culture. We no longer look for social connection and affiliation in the same way we did before the tech revolution. More and more people connect virtually. We can Skype with people without ever having to visit them. The person in the office next to me emails me instead of stepping around the corner to talk. Teens text their friend sitting beside them on the sofa. The neighborhood sandlot baseball game is nearly a thing of the past while the neighborhood kids sit in their air conditioned homes playing computer games with the other kids on the block.

It's not just the church.

I think we do have to package delivery of the gospel message differently to draw people to our churches and promote the value of real-life connection with a body of believers to practice corporate worship and be in relationship with each other.

 

[aiki]

So why is it we can't include homosexuals in anything until they're 'properly sterilized' of their sin?

I don't know. Who says they can't be included in anything until sterilized? I haven't. What I have said is that all unbelievers ought to be brought to faith in Christ before they are brought into the community of believers, the Church, to worship God and learn more of His truth and be encouraged and supported spiritually by brothers and sisters in the faith.

Why is it you are defending their castigation and outright exclusion?

I'm not. This is your prejudiced assumption about me, not what I am actually proposing or doing.

Because to "jump on them" seems to be very in vogue with Christians nowadays, and you seem to want to defend that mentality.

No it's not. The very reverse is true. Everywhere I look I see churches accommodating the sin of homosexuality in their company. In fact, this was the point the OP made.

Are you saying you can agree that we should be kind and welcoming toward them BEFORE, and whether or not they decide to change their ways?

Of course we ought to be kind and welcoming of sinners! Just not into the Body of Believers, the Church.

Similarly, the "clear teaching of scripture" I highly doubt tells christians to be insensitive jerks to people and stand over them as if we're their mother nagging them about what they do wrong.

And so? No one in this thread is suggesting doing this, so why are you going on here as though someone has?

Oh really, because this sounds exactly like what you're describing to me.

Well, then, from my own words demonstrate that this is so. Show where I have described any such thing.

Of "partaking in their sinful practices" obviously not, but he didn't spend his time with the pious.

He most certainly did! He found himself in the company of the pious all the time (ie. the Pharisees and scribes).

He spent his time with thugs, and tax collectors, and the lower folk that the religious folk thought were scum.

Yes, and he also ate meals with Pharisees like Simon (John 3; Luke 7:36-50).

Can you show that they actually support it? If not, than you haven't an argument at all just random semi-related bible verses.

You're the one who made the assertion that they didn't support my points, so you bear the burden of demonstrating this is so. Can you? If not, then, as I said, you've expressed mere opinion rather than fact.

 

[NeedyFollower]

It is an oft discussed subject that mainline Protestant denominations are declining and losing members. Evangelical denominations are also declining in recent years. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical denomination in the United States with 15 million members, is declining similarly as the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the US, the United Methodist Church with 7.2 million members.

The Southern Baptist Convention lost 1 million members.
https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WUg5mLSJmlI

The United Methodist Church, in the US, has also lost members. In 2011, the UMC lost 72,000 members.
2011 numbers show U.S. members still sliding - The United Methodist Church

At some point in time "church" became a gathering of like minded believers meeting together to worship , learn , sing , etc. Nothing wrong per se . People trying to achieve a "first century " church tried different doctrines , liturgies , formulas , etc. Unless I am mistaken , the original church were people who were born again by the spirit into a new family. It was the living body of Jesus Christ. Not an institution ...no programs , no choir with Thursday night practice and sheet music to buy and a pianist to hire. These were people who had forsaken all to follow Christ Jesus. ( Let any man who follows me first count the cost. ) They were people who knew there was an actual cost to follow Christ . ( many were no longer allowed to be actors and other trades which went against "doing truth . " Many lost their own biological families .
It was never easy to follow Christ and forsake the world. So I believe the answer lies in Our Lord's message to the churches in Revelation. I think we need to repent from committing adultery with the world . Seeking to save our life, we have lost it. Want to be popular ? You should probably not follow Christ . You want earthly treasures and a career . ? Jesus made Himself of no reputation. May God grant me grace to follow His Lamb and to forsake the world.