Mainline Protestant and Evangelical denominations both declining, how do we change that?

FireDragon76

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It has just as little to do with the discussion as pentecostalism lol?

Pentecostalism was mentioned by others as a sign of growth in Christianity. I pointed out that Pentecostalism as a movement is not uniformly Christian in character, in the sense defined by this forum as adherence to the doctrines in the Nicene Creed.

If we are going to attack the mainline for perceived waywardness in orthodoxy (a a great exaggeration), I see no reason why Pentecostalism gets a free pass.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Pentecostalism was mentioned by others as a sign of growth in Christianity. I pointed out that Pentecostalism as a movement is not uniformly Christian in character, in the sense defined by this forum as adherence to the doctrines in the Nicene Creed.

Eh idk about that, quite a few pentecostals believe in the holy trinity. I see what you mean though at least according to the rules of a forum it's not a christian faith I suppose. But if it's growing it's logical it would be mentioned though since the discussion may revolve around why some are more attracted to that over southern baptist for example.

A discussion like this should have been in another forum category tbh cause it's inevitable that it will include faiths that maybe aren't fully within the creed or half in half out.
 
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GillDouglas

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It is an oft discussed subject that mainline Protestant denominations are declining and losing members. Evangelical denominations are also declining in recent years. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical denomination in the United States with 15 million members, is declining similarly as the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the US, the United Methodist Church with 7.2 million members.

The Southern Baptist Convention lost 1 million members.
https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WUg5mLSJmlI

The United Methodist Church, in the US, has also lost members. In 2011, the UMC lost 72,000 members.
2011 numbers show U.S. members still sliding - The United Methodist Church
Churches are only necessary for Christians. Certainly we evangelize and encourage unbelievers to 'visit' in hopes that the hearing of the Gospel will bring about the change necessary, but to the unsaved it has no purpose. The decline in the churches that truly feed to Spiritual needs of believers are declining because they're not popular to the worldly, politically correct, etc. When the churches are 'booming', you have to wonder if they're appealing to the masses of this current culture in order that their numbers remain high and increase. Christianity isn't meant to be popular.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Our church is actually looking at adding a service because every Sunday the seats are full and there are dozens standing in the back. But then again, our church is huge in outreach, service, and has separate services and programs for children. Our church isn't just a place people go to be talked at for an hour every week. It's a true community of active, engaged people who understand the Great Commission.
 
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Albion

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It is an oft discussed subject that mainline Protestant denominations are declining and losing members. Evangelical denominations are also declining in recent years. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical denomination in the United States with 15 million members, is declining similarly as the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the US, the United Methodist Church with 7.2 million members.

The Southern Baptist Convention lost 1 million members.
https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WUg5mLSJmlI

The United Methodist Church, in the US, has also lost members. In 2011, the UMC lost 72,000 members.
2011 numbers show U.S. members still sliding - The United Methodist Church
Good question and unavoidable facts. The reason for the decline is the movement away from traditional, firm teaching on the part of the mainstream churches. The more they equivocate, abandon historic standards, and accommodate worldly trends, the more members they lose.

By comparison, the churches that have resisted doing that have tended to grow. Many but not all of these are what mainline Christians consider to be cults--LDS, JW, SDA, for example--and some others are small enough to be dismissed on that basis alone. But they are growing even as the churches you cite here and others like them decline.
 
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Albion

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They're not dead. Drive around on Sunday morning and see how many church parking lots are empty. Very few!

This is true, but it's also not the point. The OP referred to the decline of the mainline church bodies. The Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, some of the Baptist and Presbyterian church bodies, for example, have declined a lot percentage-wise over the past quarter century or so. But if they have declined from 3 million members to 1.8 million, or from 15 million to 12 million, or from 10 million to 7.5 million, they can still pretend that they're doing fine since their competitors have perhaps only 5 million or less.

The decline is evident, but for those members who want to pretend it's not significant, they can just cite the total membership figures and, if they want to say more in their own defense, talk about all religion losing its popularity, the growth of atheism, young people having other outlets, or something else that serves to distract attention from the decline being experienced by their own churches.
 
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James Honigman

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It is an oft discussed subject that mainline Protestant denominations are declining and losing members. Evangelical denominations are also declining in recent years. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical denomination in the United States with 15 million members, is declining similarly as the largest mainline Protestant denomination in the US, the United Methodist Church with 7.2 million members.

The Southern Baptist Convention lost 1 million members.
https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WUg5mLSJmlI

The United Methodist Church, in the US, has also lost members. In 2011, the UMC lost 72,000 members.
2011 numbers show U.S. members still sliding - The United Methodist Church
As a baby boomer I know we have not instructed our children in the ways of the Lord. European Christianity has done even worse. That said, the decline is Biblical. In 2nd Thess. chapter 2 we are told there must be a "falling away" before the antichrist appears. We should prepare for that as I believe we will be seeing him soon.
 
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PhantomGaze

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It would be a different topic if it wasn't increasingly acceptable in the churches. Sexual immorality is spiritual poison, that's how churches become irrelavent, no moral standards.

No, it's still a different topic. Let homosexuals come to church. If they develop a genuine relationship with God, how can that hurt? Churches become relevant for doing something productive (which they rarely seem to want to do rather they like to rot with all their 'nice' programs), like feeding the homeless, or creating charities, or having actual discussions about God where they don't try to force the conversation or coerce agreement.

The only relevance churches have when they find the most vulnerable and castigate them, is to appear to be useless bastions of prejudice. That is their only relevance is as an example of irrelevance as relics of a bygone age.

Homosexuals are really the most vulnerable and subject to mocking from so many... and yet here we are casting them out along with everyone else. And you think this makes us "relevant"? The Gospel is for sinners. Not for the self-righteous.

The Gospel is to offer hope, not to give us excuses to berate people telling them that they need to behave or God's going to Judge them. That's what the Pharisees did, and that didn't' end well. Were the Pharisees right that the people should stop sinning? Sure! But that wasn't the point.
 
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PhantomGaze

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As a baby boomer I know we have not instructed our children in the ways of the Lord. European Christianity has done even worse. That said, the decline is Biblical. In 2nd Thess. chapter 2 we are told there must be a "falling away" before the antichrist appears. We should prepare for that as I believe we will be seeing him soon.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. For the record though, most millennials are relatively biblically literate in my experience. I'd say it's not biblical literacy that's lacking but willingness to make faith real, by engaging deep theology, and connecting them to a long intellectual tradition, or putting your money where your mouth is when it comes to the church's claim to desire to help the world. It all seems like words. Millennials are the most educated generation in history. Don't sell us short.
 
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GillDouglas

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Millennials are the most educated generation in history.
Is this necessary a good thing, considering the cesspool that is today's college campuses? Though this isn't necessarily the point, I believe college campuses are a relevant cause of what the OP has stated. However, I believe the kind of education that @James Honigman was referring to was, parents bringing up their children in a home focused on Christ. I'm a product of what he was referring to, being the child of baby boomers. I wasn't exposed to anything related to God in my home as a kid, and I feel like I missed out on 30+ years of time spent on studying/worshipping/etc.
 
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aiki

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The coming together of the Church as a community to learn from God's word, worship their Lord and Saviour, and fellowship with one another as brothers and sisters in Christ is not for those who are "dead in trespasses and sins," (Eph. 2:1) alienated from God and enemies toward Him in their minds by their wicked works (Col. 1:21). The Church is not set the mandate by God of incorporating into their fellowship those who "walk according to the course of the world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Eph. 2:2) The Church is set the task of evangelizing these people and making disciples of them, but the Church cannot - it must not - attempt to enter into spiritual community with the unregenerate:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."


Many churches have abandoned separateness from the unbelieving World, ostensibly under the banner of evangelism, but often actually for reasons having much more to do with the "bigger is better" business-model approach to church life and growth. And in doing so, they have totally corrupted the community of believers, inviting into their midst those who have no love for Jesus and incorporating into their "worship" the very things of the World they are to challenge and reject. But what did the apostle Paul say?

1 Corinthians 5:6
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Until the Church abandons its friendship with the World and removes the leaven from its fellowship, it will continue to try to do God's will and work in a leavened and spiritually impotent state. And the longer it does, the more the lost will reject the Church for the corrupted, hypocritical entity it has become.
 
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PhantomGaze

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Is this necessary a good thing, considering the cesspool that is today's college campuses? Though this isn't necessarily the point, I believe college campuses are a relevant cause of what the OP has stated. However, I believe the kind of education that @James Honigman was referring to was, parents bringing up their children in a home focused on Christ. I'm a product of what he was referring to, being the child of baby boomers. I wasn't exposed to anything related to God in my home as a kid, and I feel like I missed out on 30+ years of time spent on studying/worshipping/etc.

And here you are, as a Christian on a Christian forum. While a very high percentage (possibly the majority) of those raised in churches leave and don't return. Perhaps your "missing out" was a blessing in disguise as you weren't inoculated to Christian theology so as to leave like the rest.

The Church is set the task of evangelizing these people and making disciples of them, but the Church cannot - it must not - attempt to enter into spiritual community with the unregenerate

So we evangelize them by telling them they can't join the club? That doesn't sound like a winning idea to me.

Jesus loved and healed people, the Pharisees were known for judging people. Today are Christians known for judging or healing? We have obviously been very unChristlike.
 
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Paidiske

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I know of a ton of Home Churches that would return to main Churches, if they forever get rid of female trappings and made them more man friendly. A larger population then you think are allergic to Poinsettias, Easter Lillie's and other such weeds they put in those buildings.

Can I ask you to elaborate on this? Apart from having flowers in the church, what changes would you like that would make more churches "man friendly"? (Because as a woman, I often encounter churches as very masculine and "woman unfriendly" spaces, so I'm wondering what we're doing wrong if nobody's feeling particularly at home...)

Is this necessary a good thing, considering the cesspool that is today's college campuses? Though this isn't necessarily the point, I believe college campuses are a relevant cause of what the OP has stated.

I'm not so sure about that. It was other Christians at university who pointed me to being involved with a local church, where I had never been a churchgoer before. I'll be forever grateful for that. (I was also raised by lapsed Christians).
 
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PhantomGaze

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Many churches have abandoned separateness from the unbelieving World, ostensibly under the banner of evangelism, but often actually for reasons having much more to do with the "bigger is better" business-model approach to church life and growth. And in doing so, they have totally corrupted the community of believers, inviting into their midst those who have no love for Jesus and incorporating into their "worship" the very things of the World they are to challenge and reject. But what did the apostle Paul say?

The same argument you just made could be made against rock and roll, or the drums... and we know that debate is long over with.

Do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit leads people to truth through conviction?

If so, are you going to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit to decide who should come yourself?

Yes we are to live apart from the world, or more appropriately in the world, but not of it. You're not "corrupting" yourself by eating with sinners, and sharing meals with them, but only if you engage in sinful acts, which no one is suggesting.
 
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aiki

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So we evangelize them by telling them they can't join the club? That doesn't sound like a winning idea to me.

Jesus loved and healed people, the Pharisees were known for judging people. Today are Christians known for judging or healing? We have obviously been very unChristlike.

Who said anything about telling the lost they can't join God's family? I said quite explicitly in my last post that believers are to evangelize the lost and make disciples of them. All are welcome to enter into God's kingdom - but on God's terms; He will adopt any who will come to Him His way. And until a person has done so, until they have abandoned the broad way for the narrow way, they have no place in the community of God's children, the Church (see my last post). Is this a "winning" (whatever that means) idea? Maybe not. But it is nonetheless an entirely biblical one.

Yes, Jesus loved and healed people. But he also harshly criticized the hypocritical, cast the money-changers out of the temple, and warned constantly of the danger of failing to enter into God's kingdom. He also told those he healed, "Go and sin no more." All of these things required that Jesus make moral judgments of others. In fact, it was Jesus who said,

John 7:24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."


It is a false Jesus, an unbiblical one, who is said never to have judged, never to have criticized the wicked, and who, for the sake of love, turned a blind eye to sin. There has never been a Jesus like this except in the imaginations of people who want to make Jesus in their own image.
 
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aiki

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The same argument you just made could be made against rock and roll, or the drums... and we know that debate is long over with.

Says who? Just because people have grown comfortable with compromise doesn't mean God's mandate for the Church dissolves.

Do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit leads people to truth through conviction?

Conviction of the truth, yes. And that truth is found in the Gospel which is revealed in the pages of the Bible.

If so, are you going to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit to decide who should come yourself?

No, I am going to abide by the clear teaching of Scripture, recognizing that the Holy Spirit will always act in accord with what God has declared is true and has commanded of us in His word.

Yes we are to live apart from the world, or more appropriately in the world, but not of it. You're not "corrupting" yourself by eating with sinners, and sharing meals with them, but only if you engage in sinful acts, which no one is suggesting.

But the Church, the Bride of Christ, has no fellowship, no communion, with the lost because they are "dead in trespasses and sins" and "enemies in their minds toward God by their wicked works." The Church must evangelize the lost and make disciples of them as God has commanded in His word, but inviting the lost into the fellowship of believers while they are still lost goes totally contrary to the explicit command of Scripture.
 
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Paidiske

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So what are you saying, Aiki? Would you like to go back to the days where you weren't allowed to be present for a full church service until after your baptism?

I take your broader point, but I am not sure what that looks like in practice, in your mind.
 
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hedrick

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We need to be skeptical about using numbers to judge truth. When groups are growing they claim it shows God is blessing them. When they get smaller they claim to be the persecuted remnant.

I think it's worth looking for reasons. If there are changes in style or format that can help the Gospel change we should do it. But in the end we plant the seeds and God makes the plants grow. Our job is to be faithful.
 
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anna ~ grace

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In many cases, those things which make Christianity morally and spiritually distinct from the surrounding culture are fading from much of Protestantism. I'm not saying that Protestants alone are guilty of this; others are, too. Souls feel drawn to, say, Islam, because most of the Muslim world has some concept of fairly iron-clad moral absolutes, guidelines, no-arguments-allowed beliefs, and a passionate (albeit often misguided) devotion to its prophet, book, and deity. That appeals to people. The women are generally veiled, the men are strong leaders in the home and the mosque, there is a great deal of respect for the contents and commandments of the Quran, and Muslims, for the most part, are very sure about what they believe and what is pleasing to Allah, even if the surrounding world feels that some of those standards are archaic, misogynistic, bigoted, fanatical, or baffling.

A growing number of Christians, however, reject much of what the New Testament commands and prohibits with excuses such as "times have changed", "that's just Paul", "our understanding of God has changed", "Jesus didn't say that directly", and "we must change to remain relevant". Whereas a Muslim might in contrast say or feel something like "I don't care which century it is, homosexuality is punishable by death, I have every right to take a second, third, or fourth wife, my eleven year old daughter is going to marry her first cousin who's twenty-two because I say so, and if any of my children even adopt the ways of the kufurim, they are both literally and figuratively dead to me". However awful much of that might sound to us, it reveals a deep and essential devotion to Islam far greater than any concern for public outrage or even sentiment. If Christians had similar zeal for Christ Crucified, the Scriptures, the Apostles, and holiness, we wouldn't have this problem.
 
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Smidlee

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We need to be skeptical about using numbers to judge truth. When groups are growing they claim it shows God is blessing them. When they get smaller they claim to be the persecuted remnant.

I think it's worth looking for reasons. If there are changes in style or format that can help the Gospel change we should do it. But in the end we plant the seeds and God makes the plants grow. Our job is to be faithful.
Interestingly Jesus was running off disciples in his ministry.
 
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