Mainline Protestant and Evangelical denominations both declining, how do we change that?

[Paidiske]

That would suggest that we're not already focussed on following Scripture, which is not my experience.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'd suggest stop worrying about numbers and start focusing on following scripture, but that's just me.

We Lutherans have always been a bit of a minority in the US (outside perhaps certain parts of the upper midwest), and religious outsiders (our clergy, unlike other mainline denominations, do not go to generic Protestant seminaries), so I don't think we perceive the collapse of "Christian America" in quite the same way. That's just my observation I've gathered from talking to my pastor. The decline of Christianity in America doesn't distress him as much, since he considers most other forms of Christianity in the US, "prarie religion" and revivalism, as he puts it.

Perhaps it presents an opportunity to re-evangelize a culture without the baggage of the past.

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps it presents an opportunity to re-evangelize a culture without the baggage of the past.

I've thought this too. When you're talking to a general population who have absolutely zero knowledge, you have enormous opportunity.

At the moment, though, we have to get past the fallout from the sexual abuse crisis. Too many of those people outside the church right now only know one thing about us; we allowed and covered up the sexual abuse of children. Until that stops being the first thing people think of, we're up against an enormous obstacle.

 

[RDKirk]

Remove the current, obsessive focus on abortion and homosexuality and instead put that focus back onto Jesus and his commandments of loving God and loving each other. All a lot of people see when they hear the word "Christian" nowadays is extreme far right-wing politics and they go running the other way as fast as they possibly can before they even set foot inside a church building. People are sick of the hypocrisy of people who claim to be Christians and yet are about as far from being Christ-like as a person can get, so they don't want anything to do with the matter.

I agree, but that's in the West. Hang with some Christians in Vietnam for a while, and you see a different spirit at work.

 

[RDKirk]

I've thought this too. When you're talking to a general population who have absolutely zero knowledge, you have enormous opportunity.

At the moment, though, we have to get past the fallout from the sexual abuse crisis. Too many of those people outside the church right now only know one thing about us; we allowed and covered up the sexual abuse of children. Until that stops being the first thing people think of, we're up against an enormous obstacle.

That's why Andy Stanley speaks of the strategy difference between a "pre-Christian" audience that has no preconception of the gospel and a post-Christian audience that already has a preconception--and generally a wrong one--of Christians.

I've met too many people in the US who have heard a lot of Christobabble (like Star Trek "technobabble," not real, just fake gibberish that sounds plausible) and yet had never heard the gospel.

 

[NeedyFollower]

That's why Andy Stanley speaks of the strategy difference between a "pre-Christian" audience that has no preconception of the gospel and a post-Christian audience that already has a preconception--and generally a wrong one--of Christians.

I've met too many people in the US who have heard a lot of Christobabble (like Star Trek "technobabble," not real, just fake gibberish that sounds plausible) and yet had never heard the gospel.

As someone who seeks to be a follower of "the way" as Jesus's followers were known, I have been struggling with understanding what is a christian ? What is the narrow way ? I limit my intake of worldly influence as much as I am able but did allow myself some "christian radio". Many good words and correct sounding theology from well known Evangelist /pastors but something does not add up . For example , you quote Andy Stanley, son of Charles Stanley. After one of the broadcast messages there was a commercial for an upcoming Intouch Ministries 7 Day Alaska Cruise with Charles and Andy Stanley. Apparently there is a whole series of " inspirational cruises " with all the well known players and gospel singers . Hawaii , Carribean , etc. Who can afford this type of activity and who has the time given the number of lost ? When Jesus said to count the cost to follow Him , is this the cost ? Also where it says it is not only given to believe in Him but also to suffer for His name's sake . I would guess the kitchen staff and waiters suffer far more than the wealthy christians who have booked passage to be inspired. Are you sure we are following the same Jesus ?

All the epistles written close to 2000 years ago were written to a people who were going through some things like loss of possessions ( you took joyfully the spoiling of all your goods ), loss of family ..much like muslim converts do today when they leave Islam to follow our Lord. This may sound like judgement on my part but do I close my eyes and praise God ? What about truth ? Does truth have any basis in the gospel ? It seems there is a hybrid Christianity that allows one to love the world while wearing a theology of Christ . I wonder what the fallen away church shall look like in the last days ? Maybe flee is the right answer to the OP's question.

 

[RDKirk]

As someone who seeks to be a follower of "the way" as Jesus's followers were known, I have been struggling with understanding what is a christian ? What is the narrow way ? I limit my intake of worldly influence as much as I am able but did allow myself some "christian radio". Many good words and correct sounding theology from well known Evangelist /pastors but something does not add up . For example , you quote Andy Stanley, son of Charles Stanley.

Andy and his father have very different ideas about how the gospel should be advanced.

After one of the broadcast messages there was a commercial for an upcoming Intouch Ministries 7 Day Alaska Cruise with Charles and Andy Stanley. Apparently there is a whole series of " inspirational cruises " with all the well known players and gospel singers . Hawaii , Carribean , etc. Who can afford this type of activity and who has the time given the number of lost ? When Jesus said to count the cost to follow Him , is this the cost ? Also where it says it is not only given to believe in Him but also to suffer for His name's sake . I would guess the kitchen staff and waiters suffer far more than the wealthy christians who have booked passage to be inspired. Are you sure we are following the same Jesus ?

All the epistles written close to 2000 years ago were written to a people who were going through some things like loss of possessions ( you took joyfully the spoiling of all your goods ), loss of family ..much like muslim converts do today when they leave Islam to follow our Lord. This may sound like judgement on my part but do I close my eyes and praise God ? What about truth ? Does truth have any basis in the gospel ? It seems there is a hybrid Christianity that allows one to love the world while wearing a theology of Christ . I wonder what the fallen away church shall look like in the last days ? Maybe flee is the right answer to the OP's question.

I agree with your illustration, but as I think I said earlier, Jesus knows the names in His book, so he's not worrying about numbers. Scripture indicates that it annoys Him when we worry about numbers.

It's not the job of the Church to gather everyone. We are to preach the gospel to everyone, but to realize that only a minority are enabled by the Father to accept it.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Andy and his father have very different ideas about how the gospel should be advanced.



I agree with your illustration, but as I think I said earlier, Jesus knows the names in His book, so he's not worrying about numbers. Scripture indicates that it annoys Him when we worry about numbers.

It's not the job of the Church to gather everyone. We are to preach the gospel to everyone, but to realize that only a minority are enabled by the Father to accept it.

I am starting to wonder exactly what Gospel is being preached. Is it a theology extrapolated from various epistles written to a specific people that we have coupled together to support our own ideas ? For example , being Southern Baptist for a while , I am familiar with " The Roman Road" used in Gospel tracts and preached in revivals in order to fulfill the great commission. But the great commission was much , much more than get them in church , get them"saved. " If that was the extent of the message , i.e that we all have fallen short of the glory of God , that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead , you will be saved. Do we need more ? Why did Christ Jesus bother with all of the sermons and teachings ? Did He not know the gospel ? What about Paul and others ? Why bother to exhort us to not love the world ? Why tell us to count the cost if there be none ? This has troubled me and I sincerely seek the truth. It does not appear that the "church" has much time for each other which would indicate a lack of love ..you know , the kind of love which compelled a savior to leave the glory of heaven and communion with the Father to come and be crucified by His own so that He might save them. Time for the beach , parties, celebrations , sports , movies , TV and church two or three times a week . Do we want truth or assurance of salvation ?
The great commission as I understand it was to go make disciples teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded them . And reading much early church history , the cost of making disciples was life itself. We give up in order to give as the kernel of corn does . Making proselytes is easy ...we can encompass land and sea and make them two fold more the child of hell than we are unless we have them understand the cost of turning their back on this world and towards the Father through His Son. ( Which is repentance. ) To go to war with the god of this world ( Not actual war but you know what I mean ...as you say , deplored in the US . )
Look at 2nd Peter 2:2-4 . Two incomes is essential to the well being of the "church" so we give our children to the world to raise . Have we enslaved ourselves to the god of this world through covetousness ?
We have His word that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ...we shall be rewarded with Him ..He is the reward. But many think diligently seeking God is hearing from a preacher. Is God not able through the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth ? There is a reason why Jesus tells the churches to repent in revelation..It seems it is because we have allowed the world to define who we are and prefer theology to Truth ..For this reason God shall send a strong delusion that they would believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth. And if Jesus is the way , the truth and the life ..and we love not the truth ...can we love the TRUTH ? Do you know what I mean ? The church seems utterly broken to me and the cost of repentance is more than most would/could allow . Nothing left but to crucify the truth .

 

[hedrick]

that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead , you will be saved. Do we need more ? Why did Christ Jesus bother with all of the sermons and teachings ?

Confessing that Jesus is Lord (a better translation than "confess the Lord Jesus") is a Pauline equivalent of Jesus' call to follow him. Obviously having him as Lord means following him. That was a core concept for Jesus. But it wasn't the end. Following him means doing what he commands, so his followers are expected to live the way he teaches. He speaks of judgement based on whether we do.

So Paul is right that having Jesus as Lord making us Jesus' followers, and God accepts us and forgives us (Paul: justifies us). But it implies living as Jesus taught. Jesus spends a fair amount of time talking about judgement based on that, although that has to be tempered by God's forgiveness, and the fact that what he's looking for is that we show it in some way (bear fruit), not that we're perfect.

Romans is about justification, not the Christian life. Look in 1 Cor to see places where Paul emphasizes the importance of doing what Jesus commanded.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Confessing that Jesus is Lord (a better translation than "confess the Lord Jesus") is a Pauline equivalent of Jesus' call to follow him. Obviously having him as Lord means following him. That was a core concept for Jesus. But it wasn't the end. Following him means doing what he commands, so his followers are expected to live the way he teaches. He speaks of judgement based on whether we do.

So Paul is right that having Jesus as Lord making us Jesus' followers, and God accepts us and forgives us (Paul: justifies us). But it implies living as Jesus taught. Jesus spends a fair amount of time talking about judgement based on that, although that has to be tempered by God's forgiveness, and the fact that what he's looking for is that we show it in some way (bear fruit), not that we're perfect.

Romans is about justification, not the Christian life. Look in 1 Cor to see places where Paul emphasizes the importance of doing what Jesus commanded.

Yes , I agree . We are justified by the sacrifice of Christ which is I guess is the equivalent of God himself offering a sacrifice ..His only begotten Son. As disciples , we too then offer ourselves a living sacrifice so that Christ may live and that is how "we" bear fruit ...but it is Him in us bearing fruit.
The sanctification part is the difficult part for me anyway ..particularly growing up and surrounded by a society that seeks it's own which is polar opposites of Christ. I get that we are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast but I also understand that our Lord Jesus often stresses that to whom much is given much is required . It sounds like "works" but I look at it as a product of God's grace and mercy ..not that I could ever earn anything but wish to " put to work " that which was given me ...much like people of the world view "making their money work for them . It seems also that if I take God's mercy and grace for granted ..it may actually be taken from me and given to someone else .

 

[RDKirk]

I get that we are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast but I also understand that our Lord Jesus often stresses that to whom much is given much is required . It sounds like "works" but I look at it as a product of God's grace and mercy ..not that I could ever earn anything but wish to " put to work " that which was given me ...much like people of the world view "making their money work for them . It seems also that if I take God's mercy and grace for granted ..it may actually be taken from me and given to someone else .

I think the confusion arises from failing to accept this:

Don’t you know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought at a price.

What doesn't get accepted is the ramification of servanthood. To be saved is to be a servant, and the work of a servant is not to become a what one already is.

So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'

 

[NeedyFollower]

I think the confusion arises from failing to accept this:

Don’t you know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought at a price.

What doesn't get accepted is the ramification of servanthood. To be saved is to be a servant, and the work of a servant is not to become a what one already is.

So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'

Thanks Brother ...As part of the "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" , for me anyway ..it has been a journey of sorts to unbecome everything that society has told me I am although I know that in Christ I am not since I died with Him on the cross ...Society tell me to be ambitious so that I will be held to be successful ..The Holy Spirit tell me that praise and honor is for God. Society tells me to seek a stable home life , good financial planning , etc. The Holy Spirit says the just shall live by faith. Society says to store up treasures , Jesus says to take up my cross and follow Him . Being a servant of Christ is not as easy as " getting saved " particularly when there are no Apostle Pauls to follow . Where there is no vision the people perish . Men of great words and perfect theology , yes . Those who have forsaken life in order to bring life ? Maybe not as easily found but I keep hoping and praying.

we are told to exhort one another daily ..to provoke one another to love and to good works .. Unworthy servant part is of course right and so since all glory goes to God our Father and His Lamb ..not to mention that to love is clearly our duty and duty we all wish to aspire more and more towards. Grace and Peace in the name of our Lord Jesus.