Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[BABerean2]

I never , ever questioned the New Covenant.

Most of the leading proponents of your doctrine ignore the New Covenant, because they know it kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Some even claim the New Covenant is not in effect yet.

The original proponents of your doctrine claimed that God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
See the book "Things to Come" by Dwight Pentecost.
One of my Sunday School teachers taught from the book at one of our former church bodies that taught Dispensational Theology.

You seem to not be aware of what the founders of your doctrine taught.

They also taught that the Church is God's eternal heavenly people, while Israel is God's eternal earthly people.
Old time Dispensationalist Clearance Larkin added, "And never the twain shall meet."


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[ewq1938]

Either Jesus is confused below, or you are confused.

There is no need to flame or be rude here.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Not all at the same time...do you not see that Rev 20 says some resurrect, while the rest of the dead lived not til the thousand years ended? Obviously that last group of dead lived/resurrected at a separate time so Jesus above is not saying all resurrect at the same time but there comes a time for the dead to rise...assuming "at the same time" would be incorrect especially considering what Rev 20 says.

Either Paul is confused below, or you are confused.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Jesus will judge the living and the dead saints when he returns. As Rev 20 says, the rest of the dead are resurrected and are judged after a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Righteous dead are resurrected and judged.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are the unrighteous dead and they resurrect and are judged much later. That's two different days of resurrection and judging just as Premil believes.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Most of the leading proponents of your doctrine ignore the New Covenant, because they know it kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Some even claim the New Covenant is not in effect yet.

The original proponents of your doctrine claimed that God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
See the book "Things to Come" by Dwight Pentecost.
One of my Sunday School teachers taught from the book at one of our former church bodies that taught Dispensational Theology.

You seem to not be aware of what the founders of your doctrine taught.

They also taught that the Church is God's eternal heavenly people, while Israel is God's eternal earthly people.
Old time Dispensationalist Clearance Larkin added, "And never the twain shall meet."


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I told you friend it isn't my doctrine.
I didn't create it, and you have not been able (a gazillion times) to refute it whatsoever.
You just keep repeating videos and commentaries about the New Covenant, which isn't even in question.
What exactly is you're point that you are trying to convey?

 

[LastSeven]

I

Heaven does receive Jesus.

I do not believe that God has yet 'restored everything'...

So, I am lost on how this applies to anything...

You misunderstand my point. I too believe God has not yet restored everything. My point is that the restoration of all things is the new heaven and new earth. No other time fits that description more perfectly. Therefore, since Jesus does not return until that time, Jesus does not return until after the thousand years. That is my point. And that point supports amillenialism.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

 

[LastSeven]

So, if Christ has not yet taken his rule on earth, how could the Millennium already be?

Revelation 11:15
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The above applies not to the thousand years but to the new earth. We know this because it speaks of both God the father and the son reining together over the earth, and we know that God the father does not take the kingdom until the time of Jesus return.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

This is also the end of the thousand year reign because as the very next verse tells us

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Therefore we know for certain that your verse above, Revelation 11:15, refers to the end of the thousand year reign, when the eternal reign begins.

As Revelation 20:4 states that Christ rules with his saints for a thousand years, and that they are resurrected from the dead

Yes, but notice that it does not say Jesus reigns on earth during this time, only that he reigns. That is the big assumption that premillenialists always make and it's not right to insert words into scripture. The text says only that he reigns, not that he reigns on earth.

'4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.'

It also, as you see, strongly implies the Beast and the False Prophet were already destroyed, though some amillennialists see this as already having happened, and others, do not.

I don't see this as requiring or even implying that the beast and false prophet are already destroyed. I don't believe that happens until after the thousand years.

The real confusion does not come because of Revelation 11 and those verses: after all, do you believe the two witnesses have already come, and have ascended to Heaven?

I don't think so, but since I'm not sure what or who the two witnesses are I can't be sure.

Do you believe that 'Satan has been locked up' in such a way that 'he no longer deceives the nations', this very day, and since the rise of the 'Holy Roman Empire' and the 'Catholic Church'? Over that stretch of period?

I do believe Satan has been "locked up" although I admit the phrase "deceive the nations" is a tough one to reconcile. I believe that Satan has been spiritually bound by Christ, as he said in Matthew 28:18

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And I believe that we, through Christ, have that same power (meaning we reign with Him). Non believers do not have that power over Satan which is why he is still able to deceive them.

I will state, lastly, however, I believe the real confusion comes at the beginning of Revelation 12, on that verse.

Revelation 12 describes the time when Satan was cast out of heaven and I believe this happened when Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, as Jesus himself said in Luke 10:18

He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

I wonder if this falling from heaven also has something to do with his binding, in the sense that he no longer can accuse us before the throne.

 

[LastSeven]

My question to you, as another poster also argued this, is 'do you believe that the events of Revelation 11 has already happened'?

If not, then Christ has not yet begun his reign on earth, and so the Millennium has not yet started.

Revelation 11 has not yet happened, but that does not require the thousand years to be future because Revelation 11 does not refer to the thousand years. It refers to the new earth and the eternal reign of God.

As I said in my previous post, we know this because God the father does not take the kingdom until Jesus' reign ends (1 Corinthians 15) and Revelation 11 speaks of God beginning to reign. Furthermore it tells us that this reign of God is everlasting, which is much longer than a thousand years.

 

[LastSeven]

No that is just a personal insult.

Didn't mean to insult you. My apologies.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Ah. So that's where you get two judgments from. I believe when it says "judgment was given unto them" it doesn't mean "they were judged" but rather it means "the authority to judge was given unto them". As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:3 "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

 

[LastSeven]

Because they are immortal so death is swallowed up for them.

I don't think you understand what I'm asking you. Please read my question again. I said, "Do you not agree that when Jesus returns we are resurrected? If so, then how can you deny that death is swallowed up in victory at that time?"

In other words, when Jesus returns he defeats the last enemy which is death, and he does so by taking death away from us all as we are resurrected. So that being the case, doesn't this prove that Jesus' return is also the end of his reign, since he reigns only until death is swallowed up in victory?

 

[LastSeven]

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Look at the parts I highlighted in red. Doesn't that prove that not only the wicked are judged here?

1. Why would the book of life be opened if only those doomed to death are being judged here?
2. Every man is being judged here. That's what it says. Every man.
3. Why bother to see if the person being judged is not found in the book of life if only the wicked are being judged here?

Clearly, both the wicked and the righteous are being judged here.

 

[ewq1938]

Didn't mean to insult you. My apologies.

Thank you.

Ah. So that's where you get two judgments from. I believe when it says "judgment was given unto them" it doesn't mean "they were judged" but rather it means "the authority to judge was given unto them".

Yes judgment was given to them and they judged the beheaded saints who "lived" which means to go from being dead from beheading to living so we have both a judgement and a resurrection before the thousand years even begins. So, when are dead saints resurrected? When Jesus returns right? That shows that the second coming happened and the beheaded saints were resurrected because Jesus had returned and that is the time for the resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't think you understand what I'm asking you. Please read my question again. I said, "Do you not agree that when Jesus returns we are resurrected? If so, then how can you deny that death is swallowed up in victory at that time?"

In other words, when Jesus returns he defeats the last enemy which is death, and he does so by taking death away from us all as we are resurrected.

From us yes, but death is not defeated for the unsaved. The second death is the punishment they receive and that is after the second coming.

So that being the case, doesn't this prove that Jesus' return is also the end of his reign, since he reigns only until death is swallowed up in victory?

I think you are mixing some verses up. Can you show the verses that you refer to here? Thanks.

I do not believe anything says Jesus stops reigning when all forms of death is swallowed up because that specific wording is only in a verse concerning the resurrected dead in Christ and says nothing about no longer reigning. Rev 20 is clear the resurrected dead saints reign with Christ for a thousand years so clearly he reigns for at least that thousand years with the second death still coming for the unsaved.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


These verses are specifically about death being swallowed up for those that resurrect or those who are changed. It is not the end of death for others yet. That comes later long after the second coming:

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

He reigns until he has his enemies under his feet which is the thousand year reign of the rod of iron. Only after that is completed does Christ end that certain reign and judgment day comes and death will be defeated for anyone because death is cast into the LOF.



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[ewq1938]

Look at the parts I highlighted in red. Doesn't that prove that not only the wicked are judged here?

No. The book of life confirms that none of these people have their names in it.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The saints, the saved Christians were already judged and resurrected before this day. Look at where the dead are coming from...not from heaven but hell and dark deep places of the Earth....those are the unsaved being judged. The reason "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years was finished" is because they were not saved and not worthy of being in the first resurrection.

1. Why would the book of life be opened if only those doomed to death are being judged here?

See above.

1. Every man is being judged here. That's what it says. Every man.

It does not say that. Only the dead are being judged which means only those not part of the first resurrection. The only people who can possibly still be called dead are the unsaved.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


The people being judged come from the sea, from hell and from death....sound like saved people to you?


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

No rewarding shown here...no immorality, only punishment of the wicked. That's because the judgment of the saints happened in the first part of Rev 20.

I realize this is not what you believe or were taught but I am just answering your questions and showing you why a Premil believes as they do.

1. [*]Why bother to see if the person being judged is not found in the book of life if only the wicked are being judged here?

This verse explains:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Clearly, both the wicked and the righteous are being judged here.

You didn't show any righteous being judged there. Only the wicked are shown...only punishment shown. Reward is only found in the earlier judging.

 

[twin.spin]

You state that Millennialism is the attempt to stop Jesus from coming to judge , thus it has long been held as a heresy.

What???
Please expound upon that statement.

Post #76 in it's entirety does.

 

[BABerean2]

You just keep repeating videos and commentaries about the New Covenant, which isn't even in question.
What exactly is you're point that you are trying to convey?

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
The New Covenant is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

The New Covenant, which was promised to Israel and Judah in the Old Testament, is specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

Therefore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and the Church of Jesus Christ is under the New Covenant for our salvation.

The sacred cow of modern Dispensational Theology just had its throat cut in the passages found above.

This is the reason that many Dispensationalists deny the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
You apparently have not understood this point, and maybe you still do not...

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[BABerean2]

There is no need to flame or be rude here.





Not all at the same time...do you not see that Rev 20 says some resurrect, while the rest of the dead lived not til the thousand years ended? Obviously that last group of dead lived/resurrected at a separate time so Jesus above is not saying all resurrect at the same time but there comes a time for the dead to rise...assuming "at the same time" would be incorrect especially considering what Rev 20 says.





Jesus will judge the living and the dead saints when he returns. As Rev 20 says, the rest of the dead are resurrected and are judged after a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Righteous dead are resurrected and judged.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are the unrighteous dead and they resurrect and are judged much later. That's two different days of resurrection and judging just as Premil believes.

 

[Radagast]

I think my reasons for believing pre-millenialism over amillenialism or post-millenialism is becoming stronger.

What kind of premill?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Jesus taught Amillennialism. And nowhere mentions a temporal 1000 year kingdom. But he taught instead an eternal kingdom which is spiritual. Anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation.

Every Jew knew what He meant "repent and believe for the kingdom of heaven is nigh"

You guys preach the kingdom of God minus the actual kingdom...pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye.

I BELIEVE in pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye, but I also believe the kingdom of God will be manifest, God's plan for the fullness of time is to unite all things in Christ whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.

 

[Dave L]

Every Jew knew what He meant "repent and believe for the kingdom of heaven is nigh"

You guys preach the kingdom of God minus the actual kingdom...pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye.

I BELIEVE in pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye, but I also believe the kingdom of God will be manifest, God's plan for the fullness of time is to unite all things in Christ whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.

Was Jesus lying when he said the Kingdom was at hand? He also said; “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Matthew 12:28) (NET)

 

[Fascinated With God]

What kind of premill?

It seems to me that a proper delineation should include the 1st & 2nd tribulations and the 1st & 2nd resurrections that are separated by the 1000 years.

The main confusion is that there is an anti-rapture, it is the wicked that are taken at the end of the 1st tribulation as the 1st resurrection takes place. Luke 17 & Mark 24 compare those that are taken to those that were taken in the Flood. Mark 24 also compares those who are taken to those cast into the Outer Darkness in Revelation, using the same wording "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

The 1st resurrection is of the 144,000. The same resurrection as described in Ezekiel 37 of the Army of Israel. The 1st resurrection will be for the elites, the "firstfruits" Rev 14:4 just as Jesus was the firstfruit (James 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20).

"Thy kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven." There would be no need for a new Earth if everyone was leaving the physical world. Belief in the rapture is a form of escapism and physical annihilationism rather than true eternal life.

 

[Dave L]

Actually, I do and did, and all of Revelation does support the pre-millenial viewpoint, otherwise, why have written it? You even felt that my response there was correct enough to respond that 'the disciples of Jesus of the first AD church believed as I do', which means I am, at least partially, correct in your eyes.

I do not, however, agree with you that the Millennium began at the first coming, if I am exactly taking what you are saying.

As for 'why', all of Revelation, but I can get into specifics, if you wish to clarify your own specifics.

This is specific, otherwise. Revelation was given.

If one wishes to get technical, Rome was not even one of the Seven Churches mentioned in Revelation, to begin with.

By the time of Pentecost, Peter taught Amillennialism in Acts 2. “So then, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31) (NET)

And Paul likewise said; “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:25–26) (KJV 1900)

So Jesus reigns on David's throne (in heavenly Jerusalem above) until the resurrection on the last day.

“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28) (KJV 1900)

At this point God creates the new heavens and earth where Christ continues the kingdom forever.

All of the apostles abandoned their physical kingdom baggage as they renewed their minds in the New Covenant.