Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[Dave L]

Hahaha -- so you believe I am damned, because of what? Because I am not an amillenialist?

I am saved and belong to and serve the Kingdom of Heaven.

I did not suggest that. Peter and the other disciples believed similar to what you do until Jesus enlightened them.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Without scripture we have no faith, only fleshly belief. And your millennial theory has zero direct support from scripture. You would have provided it by now if it existed.

Well, for one, the Millennial viewpoint is supported by Revelation 20...

I have presented substantial evidence to other posters who have requested it, and continue to do so.

The pre-millenialist viewpoint is supported as the default reading of Revelation, further, exactly as it was taken by the original readers of it. And, exactly as it is written, and as John took it, when he wrote it down.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Revelation spans the entire New Covenant era. You look for the symbol to appear and miss the meaning entirely. If you looked for what the symbol represents, it's all been a work in progress since Jesus revealed it.

All you can do to argue the Millennium started at the time of Jesus first ministry on earth, is to argue that pre-millenialism was **never** valid. But, even the Catholic Church does not argue this.

You have not expressed your views on this, so as I could examine them with scrutiny, beyond having expressed that pre-millenialism was never valid.

 

[Dave L]

Well, for one, the Millennial viewpoint is supported by Revelation 20...

I have presented substantial evidence to other posters who have requested it, and continue to do so.

The pre-millenialist viewpoint is supported as the default reading of Revelation, further, exactly as it was taken by the original readers of it. And, exactly as it is written, and as John took it, when he wrote it down.

In Rev 20 the 1000 years represents Satan's binding by the saints who rule over him. When the 1000 years end, he is loosed. He then attacks the kingdom. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom.

 

[Dave L]

All you can do to argue the Millennium started at the time of Jesus first ministry on earth, is to argue that pre-millenialism was **never** valid. But, even the Catholic Church does not argue this.

You have not expressed your views on this, so as I could examine them with scrutiny, beyond having expressed that pre-millenialism was never valid.

Use scripture to support your claims. Opinion is nothing more than fluff.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation spans the entire New Covenant era. You look for the symbol to appear and miss the meaning entirely. If you looked for what the symbol represents, it's all been a work in progress since Jesus revealed it.

Like the Jews did up to 70ad...........

Matthew 12:39
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 16:4
“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet[fn] Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Luke 11:
29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say,
“This is an evil generation.
It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.[fn]
30 “For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites,
so also the Son of Man will be to this generation

Zec 3:8
‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

Hey lookie here! A GREAT SIGN! This would interest the Jews of today me thinks...........

Rev 12:1
Now a great sign appeared in heaven:
a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.





.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Is the Parousia of Christ before or after the 1000yr period........

If it is before then I will have to be Pre-Mill meaning we still have to go thru Armegeddon..........then Gog Magog........2 end of the worlds


Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?
ARMAGEDDON GOG-MAGOG SAME EVENT

What are others views of the "armegeddon/gog-magog in Revelation.

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

I would like to expound on these 2 verses as this thread progresses. Thank you

Ezekiel 39:
17 " And thou son of adam! thus says my Adonay Yahweh, say thou! to bird of every wing, and to all of beast of the field: 'be assembled ye! and come ye! together ye from round about on sacrifice of Me which I sacrificing for ye, a sacrifice great on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and ye drink blood.
18 Flesh of mighty-ones ye shall eat, and blood of princes of the Land ye shall drink.....

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-leading/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the Day, that the Great of the God the Almighty.
16 And he together-leading/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn

So far, we have some interesting results:

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

1. *
   I view them as the same event
   15 vote(s)
   22.1%
2. I view them as different events
   42 vote(s)
   61.8%
3. I am not sure
   7 vote(s)
   10.3%
4. Does it really matter?
   4 vote(s)
   5.9%

.

I, like your own post declares, in terms of the majority view here, is that they are separate events. I do, however, believe they are related, as I believe the 'Day of the Lord' truly begins at the Seventh Trumpet blowing, and does not truly end until the nations are again brought by Satan against Jesus and his Holy Ones after the end of the Millennium. At that time, death will finally be defeated. That is the last enemy.

Death is started to be defeated before that time, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet's start (which I view as lasting or bringing into fruition, across the entire time period). But, I believe 'those who are asleep in Christ precede those who are still alive'.

And, 'Jesus must reign until God puts down all of his enemies'.

The reign in Heaven began when Jesus drove Satan out of the Kingdom, through the crucifixion - the murder - of Jesus, but does not begin on earth until the Seventh Trumpet is sounded in Revelation 11. And continues on earth until death is defeated, after the Millennium, when Jesus 'hands over the Kingdom to God'.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

If you have God's word, produce one scripture depicting a physical kingdom according to the gospels or epistles.

Why Dave?
What is wrong with the Book of Revelation that clearly indicates a literal 1,000 year reign ?
The Book of Revelation is part of The Word of God.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ , which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ , and of all things that he saw.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth , and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Do you reject The Word of God ?
Do you reject the words of His prophecy?
For example the three verses I just provided?
How about Revelation 20:2-7?
Do you reject that as well?
You know the 1,000 LITERAL reign of Christ.
A prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Amillennialism and The Book of Revelation just don't jive do they Dave?
No, they don't.
I will stand with The Word of God friend not the theology of Amillennialism.

Prophecy = history told in advanced.
The 1,000 literal reign of Christ as prophesied will come to pass. Make no mistake about it.

There has to be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ for many of the promises and prophecies regarding the nation of Israel to be fulfilled.
That truth just cannot be ignored.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I did not suggest that. Peter and the other disciples believed similar to what you do until Jesus enlightened them.

And, when did Jesus and the other disciples affirm Revelation 20 and the Millennium started?

Where, for this matter, do you see Revelation as splitting off to have the events of Revelation 20 happen? Or, do you not see it ever splitting of, at all? For instance, many amillenialists believe it split off before the second woe. Others believe none of the events which happened before the second woe and before Revelation 20 have happened.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

In Rev 20 the 1000 years represents Satan's binding by the saints who rule over him. When the 1000 years end, he is loosed. He then attacks the kingdom. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom.

You seem to believe you know everything in regards to Revelation, so I am not sure how I can be of service to you. You have also stated I am not a believer, and you have stated that Jesus began the Millennium with his first coming, though you conceded that initial believers of Revelation did not hold this view -- your argument seems to be, they were incorrect to do so.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Use scripture to support your claims. Opinion is nothing more than fluff.

Actually, I do and did, and all of Revelation does support the pre-millenial viewpoint, otherwise, why have written it? You even felt that my response there was correct enough to respond that 'the disciples of Jesus of the first AD church believed as I do', which means I am, at least partially, correct in your eyes.

I do not, however, agree with you that the Millennium began at the first coming, if I am exactly taking what you are saying.

As for 'why', all of Revelation, but I can get into specifics, if you wish to clarify your own specifics.

This is specific, otherwise. Revelation was given.

If one wishes to get technical, Rome was not even one of the Seven Churches mentioned in Revelation, to begin with.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The "Church Age" is the "New Covenant Age".

How do you propose to end one and not the other?


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

There is no New Covenant Age , just the New Covenant which has no end.
The Church age is from Pentacost to the removal of the Church (rapture) from earth.
Not the end of the Church obviously, but the age and functionality on this earth.
God will seal (divinely protect )the 144,000 sons of Israel (12,000 from each 12 tribes ) to evangelize the world during the 7 year tribulation.
He will also provide the two witnesses for the first 3 and a half years as well to preach their testimony before the Anti-christ kills them .
The Church absolutely will not be here during that time , hence the end of the Church age, NOT Covenant obviously.

I never , ever questioned the New Covenant.

 

[ewq1938]

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in the passage below.
It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

.

I know. The dead in Christ are judged at the 7th trump, that is when they receive immortality. Rev 20 makes clear "the rest of the dead" are judged a thousand years later.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

7th trump- the saved dead are judged to immortality.
the rest of the dead - not saved people and are resurrected and judged a thousand years later.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you not agree that when Jesus returns we are resurrected? If so, then how can you deny that death is swallowed up in victory at that time?

1 Corinthians 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Because they are immortal so death is swallowed up for them.

 

[ewq1938]

Sounds like you're forgoing logic to stick to your guns.

No that is just a personal insult.

Are you claiming that the thousand years is part of God the father's eternal reign?

No, I have not claimed that.

What then is the point of the thousand years?

To reign over the nations with a rod of iron:

Though the scripture speaks of (arguably) two resurrections, it does not speak of two judgments.

Yes it does.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

First day of judgment before the thousand years where some of the dead live again so we have judgment and resurrection.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


And here is the second judgment, of a second group of the dead who resurrect to be judged but these are judged to death not life.

In fact, Paul tells us that there is one day at which the entire world is judged.

Acts 17:31
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained

That is judging the world (the worldly unsaved) not the saints.

 

[twin.spin]

A Lutheran theologian long ago once wrote about Millennialism:

Millennialism outright denies the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and
those (who) as historically theologians describe such false teachers as their attempt to
" transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations" belong to the scoffers who, Peter warned, would come, "scoffing and following their own evil desires" (2 Peter 3:3)​

Why such pointed wording?
1) Because all three Creeds of the true Christian faith profess that Jesus:

"ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead"​

If Millennialism were true, the Creeds would have been worded like:

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to a (pre-tribulation millennial rule)​

Conclusion: Millennialism is the attempt to stop Jesus from coming to judge, thus it has long been held as a heresy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Historically Millennialism has been viewed as unbiblical:

• Augsburg Confession alludes to the origin of this error
• Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539)
• Calvin wrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Those who promote Millennialism take the 1000 yr rule in Rev as literal.
To take such a view, if one cared to be intellectually consistent, then Jesus ought to look like when he returns as Rev describes him as:

Jesus being a literal slain lamb Revelation 5:6
Jesus having a literal name on his thigh Revelation 19:16
Jesus having a literal double edged sword coming out of his mouth Revelation 2:12
Jesus having literal bronze glowing feet Revelation 2:18
Jesus' voice literally the sound of rushing waters Revelation 1:15
Jesus' eyes literally blazing fire ...Revelation 19:12
Jesus' hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow Revelation 1:14​

Conclusion: The correct reading Revelation is meant to be understood as in terms of sudden apocalyptic symbolism.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) Jesus spoke of his return in terms as one time event with all people that has ever existed being assembled at the same time with nobody being left behind. Matthew 25:31-33

Enoch (the seventh from Adam) long ago prophesied the same as Jesus' return as a one time event Jude 1:14-15

 

[ewq1938]

Well, for one, the Millennial viewpoint is supported by Revelation 20...

I have presented substantial evidence to other posters who have requested it, and continue to do so.

The pre-millenialist viewpoint is supported as the default reading of Revelation, further, exactly as it was taken by the original readers of it. And, exactly as it is written, and as John took it, when he wrote it down.

Yes:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

A Lutheran theologian long ago once wrote about Millennialism:

Millennialism outright denies the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and
those (who) as historically theologians describe such false teachers as their attempt to
" transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations" belong to the scoffers who, Peter warned, would come, "scoffing and following their own evil desires" (2 Peter 3:3)​

Why such pointed wording?
1) Because all three Creeds of the true Christian faith profess that Jesus:

"ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead"​

If Millennialism were true, the Creeds would have been worded like:

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to a (pre-tribulation millennial rule)​

Conclusion: Millennialism is the attempt to stop Jesus from coming to judge, thus it has long been held as a heresy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Historically Millennialism has been viewed as unbiblical:

• Augsburg Confession alludes to the origin of this error
• Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539)
• Calvin wrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Those who promote Millennialism take the 1000 yr rule in Rev as literal.
To take such a view, if one cared to be intellectually consistent, then Jesus ought to look like when he returns as Rev describes him as:

Jesus being a literal slain lamb Revelation 5:6
Jesus having a literal name on his thigh Revelation 19:16
Jesus having a literal double edged sword coming out of his mouth Revelation 2:12
Jesus having literal bronze glowing feet Revelation 2:18
Jesus' voice literally the sound of rushing waters Revelation 1:15
Jesus' eyes literally blazing fire ...Revelation 19:12
Jesus' hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow Revelation 1:14​

Conclusion: The correct reading Revelation is meant to be understood as in terms of sudden apocalyptic symbolism.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) Jesus spoke of his return in terms as one time event with all people that has ever existed being assembled at the same time with nobody being left behind. Matthew 25:31-33

Enoch (the seventh from Adam) long ago prophesied the same as Jesus' return as a one time event Jude 1:14-15

I suggest rereading the first three verses in the Book of Revelation.
I also wouldn't put to much faith in what other commentators say , but rather the Word of God.
I would like to discuss this post further .

 

[ItIsFinished!]

A Lutheran theologian long ago once wrote about Millennialism:

Millennialism outright denies the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and
those (who) as historically theologians describe such false teachers as their attempt to
" transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations" belong to the scoffers who, Peter warned, would come, "scoffing and following their own evil desires" (2 Peter 3:3)​

Why such pointed wording?
1) Because all three Creeds of the true Christian faith profess that Jesus:

"ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead"​

If Millennialism were true, the Creeds would have been worded like:

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to a (pre-tribulation millennial rule)​

Conclusion: Millennialism is the attempt to stop Jesus from coming to judge, thus it has long been held as a heresy.Remember the Cross https://g.co/kgs/AciHYh
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Historically Millennialism has been viewed as unbiblical:

• Augsburg Confession alludes to the origin of this error
• Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539)
• Calvin wrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Those who promote Millennialism take the 1000 yr rule in Rev as literal.
To take such a view, if one cared to be intellectually consistent, then Jesus ought to look like when he returns as Rev describes him as:

Jesus being a literal slain lamb Revelation 5:6
Jesus having a literal name on his thigh Revelation 19:16
Jesus having a literal double edged sword coming out of his mouth Revelation 2:12
Jesus having literal bronze glowing feet Revelation 2:18
Jesus' voice literally the sound of rushing waters Revelation 1:15
Jesus' eyes literally blazing fire ...Revelation 19:12
Jesus' hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow Revelation 1:14​

Conclusion: The correct reading Revelation is meant to be understood as in terms of sudden apocalyptic symbolism.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) Jesus spoke of his return in terms as one time event with all people that has ever existed being assembled at the same time with nobody being left behind. Matthew 25:31-33

Enoch (the seventh from Adam) long ago prophesied the same as Jesus' return as a one time event Jude 1:14-15

You state that Millennialism is the attempt to stop Jesus from coming to judge , thus it has long been held as a heresy.

What???
Please expound upon that statement.

 

[BABerean2]

I know. The dead in Christ are judged at the 7th trump, that is when they receive immortality. Rev 20 makes clear "the rest of the dead" are judged a thousand years later.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

7th trump- the saved dead are judged to immortality.
the rest of the dead - not saved people and are resurrected and judged a thousand years later.

Either Jesus is confused below, or you are confused.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Either Paul is confused below, or you are confused.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

.