Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[ItIsFinished!]

Surely the rap in Revs is when John saw the multitude which no man could number suddenly appear in heaven..."these are they who have come out of great tribulation"

Yes.
Many will receive Jesus Christ as Saviour during the tribulation.
Multitudes.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Yes.
Many will receive Jesus Christ as Saviour during the tribulation.
Multitudes.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The most common confusion I have found with Amills is not understanding the difference between the Jerusalem [and Jewish] interpretation of "the day of God Almighty" and Paul's "day of Christ" which he refers to in 2.Thess.2. as "that day"

2.Peter makes it very clear, and directly in relation to one day being as a 1,000 years with the Lord, referring to the end times he mentions beloved Paul who wrote many things that are hard to understand, according to the wisdom given to him.

Important words there. Only Paul understood the church among the nations, the Jerusalem crowd refused to leave Jerusalem for they were still labouring under the idea that the nations would flock to Jerusalem, yes despite all the Lord's showing them that the gospel was to go to the nations.

This is exactly why Paul was raised up. He is the apostle to the nations.

Only Paul understood the rapture, he understood that if the church was among the nations they would have to be removed before God would pour out His wrath [God's wrath is not tribulation...'nother topic]

So Pauls "that day" or "the day of Christ" are different to the Jerusalem crowd's "Day of God Almighty" They talk about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting of the elements etc but Paul speaks about the creation being released from it's bondage to decay, Paul speaks about God's plan for the fulness of time, a synonym for the 1,000 years, God's plan is to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth.

Both prophetic outlooks are correct, but the Jewish one happens AFTER the 1,000 years.

This also is the crux of the famous "dispensation" that Mid Acts Dispensationists go on about..... it is not a different gospel as they suppose, simply Paul's dispensation to establish the church among the nations. Paul also understood that the Jews were to be laid aside in the purposes of God for that period.... until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

 

[LastSeven]

4. The very bad explanations or arguments against pre-millenialism. I would really like to hear some good ones, but I find I only get evasion.

How about Acts 3:21?

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What do you think is meant by the restitution of all things?

 

[LastSeven]

4. The very bad explanations or arguments against pre-millenialism. I would really like to hear some good ones, but I find I only get evasion.

Here's another one. The seventh trumpet.

Is the seventh trumpet blown before, or after Satan is released for a short time? I guess you're going to say "before" and that's a problem because the seventh trumpet ushers in God's eternal reign, so how can Satan be released in the midst of God's eternal reign?

The other thing the seventh trumpet ushers in is the judging of the dead. Does the judging of the dead happen before, or after the thousand years? It has to happen after the thousand years because at the time of the judging of the dead, death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire, and since we know that death still exists during the thousand years, this can only happen after the thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

Here's another one. The seventh trumpet.

Is the seventh trumpet blown before, or after Satan is released for a short time? I guess you're going to say "before" and that's a problem because the seventh trumpet ushers in God's eternal reign, so how can Satan be released in the midst of God's eternal reign?

Because God does not destroy Satan until after the Millennium. That an eternal reign begins at the 7th trump does not mean all enemies are destroyed at that time.

The other thing the seventh trumpet ushers in is the judging of the dead. Does the judging of the dead happen before, or after the thousand years?

The dead in Christ are judged before the thousand years. The "rest of the dead lived not" until after the thousand years which shows two days of judging separated by a thousand years.

It has to happen after the thousand years because at the time of the judging of the dead, death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire, and since we know that death still exists during the thousand years, this can only happen after the thousand years.

Only the unsaved dead are judged after the thousand years. They are the last of the dead to exist then hell and death and all of them are cast into the LOF.

 

[LastSeven]

4. The very bad explanations or arguments against pre-millenialism. I would really like to hear some good ones, but I find I only get evasion.

What about death? When do you suppose death is destroyed? Well, we probably agree that death is thrown into the lake of fire at the time of judgment, which is just before we inherit the new earth, but do you agree that this same event coincides with the return of Jesus?

I'm guessing not because you believe Jesus' returns 1000 years prior to the end of death. Yet 1 Corinthians 15 very clearly tells us that Jesus return and the end of death are the same event.

1 Corinthians 15
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You see, according to the passage above, death is destroyed at Christ's coming. And since we know that death is destroyed after the thousand years, we also know that Jesus returns after the thousand years.

The same passage coincidentally also tells us that this is when he hands over the kingdom to God the father, which means God the father begins his reign and as we already saw earlier, God the father begins his reign when the seventh trumpet sounds. In other words, all of this stuff (the return of Christ, the start of God's reign, the judging of the dead, the end of death, the inheritance of the new earth) is linked together on the timeline making a premillennial return impossible.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

@DreamerOfTheHeart : That was a well-reasoned opening post. I agree with all of those points. I would also add a fifth point, which is that the Book of Revelation contains so many details that an Amillennial interpretation requires a mind-bending abundance of symbolism with which to explain it, because they take symbolically what the Premillennialists take literally. This, in itself, is not so important, if not for the fact that the interpretation of these symbols leads to further symbolism, giving us symbols of symbols. It's hard enough to accurately interpret symbolism, but when we have to interpret it on two orders of magnitude, the result is that we can make it mean whatever we want it to mean.

Premillennialism has its own problems, though. They're an entirely different sort, dealing in problematic chronology, logic and unlikely situations. That's why I'm currently undecided on the matter. It seems to me that each is better at disproving the other than they are at defending their own positions.

 

[ewq1938]

You see, according to the passage above, death is destroyed at Christ's coming.

It doesn't say that at all. Death is not destroyed at Christ's coming...Christ himself kills many people at the second coming, see Rev 19. Same chapter that shows the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOf but not Satan. Why? Because he is kept alive in a pit for a thousand years and released so he can deceive one last time and only then is he cast into the LOF where the beast and FP were. That proves that Satan is kept alive for a period of time between the second coming and just prior to the final day of judgment. Not to mention God the Father kills Satan's army with fire which further shows that death exists after the second coming.

 

[BABerean2]

That proves that Satan is kept alive for a period of time between the second coming and just prior to the final day of judgment. Not to mention God the Father kills Satan's army with fire which further shows that death exists after the second coming.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in the passage below.
It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[Dave L]

So, after coming back from a business trip, and going through a pre-millenial thread I posted, which made a number of amillenialists angry, I think my reasons for believing pre-millenialism over amillenialism or post-millenialism is becoming stronger.

That I see a lack of answers and a lot of jingoism and evasion definitely is a key factor there.

So, some current conclusions, but also soliciting others:

1. 'satan no longer deceives the nations'. It is really difficult to look back a 1000 years, 1500 years, or really anywhere in the current times or past to see any place where we could argue reasonably the Satan has not been deceiving the nations. Far less so for any kind of 1000 year period.

This is true whether you look to the West, or to the East. In history.

2. What Church, exactly, did Jesus reign through? You pretty well have to speaking of the Catholic Church there. Does anyone want to make that argument? I think they would not find that an easy position to maintain. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the colonialism and violent expansionism, the whole 'Holy Roman Empire', for that matter. Not even to go into all of the severe and basic doctrinal errors they introduced.

For anyone unclear, of the Millennium, it states that 'Jesus reigns for a thousand years with his saints'.

3. Chronology of Revelation. Some passages of Revelation is undeniably not in chronological order. But, arguing that the entire book is not in any sort of chronological order in order to say 'pre-millenialism is impossible' is patently absurd. Most of the book is specifically designed to be chronological in order. Seven seals, seven trumpets, and three woes. It was written like one would expect a fine clockmaker to write such a book.

This chronological order continues with the transition of the 'last trumpet' - the seventh one - to the Millennium. It continues with the binding up of Satan in the Abyss right into the Millennium, which explicitly is stated does not happen until that happens.

That binding its' self does not happening until "Babylon" falls and the "False Prophet" and "Beast" are 'thrown in the Lake of Fire'.

Granted, I have never found an amillenialist doctrine which denies that, at least, some events preceding the Millennium description have not already come to pass. One of these (I will not state which one) is relatively reasonable, but still, very strange.

'God is not a God of chaos, but of order'.

4. The very bad explanations or arguments against pre-millenialism. I would really like to hear some good ones, but I find I only get evasion.

And what ones are given are evasive and really bad standards of proof.


There are many other reasons for it, but these are some of the top ones which come to mind.

Jesus taught Amillennialism. And nowhere mentions a temporal 1000 year kingdom. But he taught instead an eternal kingdom which is spiritual. Anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation.

 

[LastSeven]

It doesn't say that at all. Death is not destroyed at Christ's coming...Christ himself kills many people at the second coming, see Rev 19. Same chapter that shows the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOf but not Satan. Why? Because he is kept alive in a pit for a thousand years and released so he can deceive one last time and only then is he cast into the LOF where the beast and FP were. That proves that Satan is kept alive for a period of time between the second coming and just prior to the final day of judgment. Not to mention God the Father kills Satan's army with fire which further shows that death exists after the second coming.

Do you not agree that when Jesus returns we are resurrected? If so, then how can you deny that death is swallowed up in victory at that time?

1 Corinthians 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[LastSeven]

Because God does not destroy Satan until after the Millennium. That an eternal reign begins at the 7th trump does not mean all enemies are destroyed at that time.

Sounds like you're forgoing logic to stick to your guns.

Are you claiming that the thousand years is part of God the father's eternal reign? What then is the point of the thousand years?

The dead in Christ are judged before the thousand years. The "rest of the dead lived not" until after the thousand years which shows two days of judging separated by a thousand years.

Though the scripture speaks of (arguably) two resurrections, it does not speak of two judgments. In fact, Paul tells us that there is one day at which the entire world is judged.

Acts 17:31
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Jesus taught Amillennialism. And nowhere mentions a temporal 1000 year kingdom. But he taught instead an eternal kingdom which is spiritual. Anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation.

Wrong.
Jesus did not teach Amillennialism.
Jesus taught Premillennialism.
You state that anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation .
That is false.
The Book of Revelation in chapter 20:2-7 mentions the 1,000 years six times in just 7 verses.
It is to be taken literally.
Many of God's promises have not been fulfilled yet .
Especially regarding the nation of Israel , (not to be confused with the Church).
The majority of these promises regarding the nation of Israel will be fulfilled during the LITERAL 1,000 reign of Christ.
The next major , marvelous, and absolutely awesome event to take place on the calander of events will be the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture).
The dead in Christ (all believers that have passed since Pentacost) will be resurrected and all present believers at that time will meet the Lord in the clouds/air . At that time they will receive glorified bodies .
This event will usher in the 7 year tribulation.
This event is not to be confused (which it often is) with The Second Coming of Christ in which he literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives.
None of these events have taken place as of yet , but most certainly will.
Much prophecy must be and will be fulfilled.
Prophecy = history (literally) told in advanced.

The Rapture , The Lord (The Groom ) takes His Bride (The Church) away without setting foot on the earth.

The Second Coming , we come back with The Lord as He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

Two very distinct and separate events which have not come to pass as of yet, but most assuredly will.
Amen.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

 

[Dave L]

Wrong.
Jesus did not teach Amillennialism.
Jesus taught Premillennialism.
You state that anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation .
That is false.
The Book of Revelation in chapter 20:2-7 mentions the 1,000 years six times in just 7 verses.
It is to be taken literally.
Many of God's promises have not been fulfilled yet .
Especially regarding the nation of Israel , (not to be confused with the Church).
The majority of these promises regarding the nation of Israel will be fulfilled during the LITERAL 1,000 reign of Christ.
The next major , marvelous, and absolutely awesome event to take place on the calander of events will be the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture).
The dead in Christ (all believers that have passed since Pentacost) will be resurrected and all present believers at that time will meet the Lord in the clouds/air . At that time they will receive glorified bodies .
This event will usher in the 7 year tribulation.
This event is not to be confused (which it often is) with The Second Coming of Christ in which he literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives.
None of these events have taken place as of yet , but most certainly will.
Much prophecy must be and will be fulfilled.
Prophecy = history (literally) told in advanced.

The Rapture , The Lord (The Groom ) takes His Bride (The Church) away without setting foot on the earth.

The Second Coming , we come back with The Lord as He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

Two very distinct and separate events which have not come to pass as of yet, but most assuredly will.
Amen.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

Jesus taught a purely spiritual kingdom. The challenge for you is to produce one exception to this from the gospels or epistles. Otherwise you add to Revelation and preach a false gospel of the kingdom. (Revelation 20 is symbolic and must yield to the clear statements of scripture).

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Jesus taught a purely spiritual kingdom. The challenge for you is to produce one exception to this from the gospels or epistles. Otherwise you add to Revelation and preach a false gospel of the kingdom. (Revelation 20 is symbolic and must yield to the clear statements of scripture).

Actually I do not have to produce anything except The Word of God.
And I most certainly am not preaching a false gospel of the Kingdom as you have stated.

The Book of Revelation is the book of just that.
REVELATION.
It isn't presented as the book of symbols not to be taking literally.

You are a amillennialist therefore your approach and application to Scripture can easily fit your narrative and beliefs.
This is the wrong approach to interpreting Scripture.
With that view you get a false cloudy view of not just The Book of Revelation, but much other Scripture.
In Revelation 20:2-7 John is writing down a vision that was given to him by God.
A vision that hasn't come to pass yet , but literally will.
I do not know how anyone could deny a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.
It has to be literal for the unfulfilled promises and prophecies of God to take place , especially and mostly regarding the nation of Israel.
There is no way around that truth.

 

[BABerean2]

Wrong.
Jesus did not teach Amillennialism.
Jesus taught Premillennialism.
You state that anyone teaching a physical temporal kingdom is adding to Revelation .
That is false.
The Book of Revelation in chapter 20:2-7 mentions the 1,000 years six times in just 7 verses.
It is to be taken literally.
Many of God's promises have not been fulfilled yet .
Especially regarding the nation of Israel , (not to be confused with the Church).
The majority of these promises regarding the nation of Israel will be fulfilled during the LITERAL 1,000 reign of Christ.
The next major , marvelous, and absolutely awesome event to take place on the calander of events will be the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture).
The dead in Christ (all believers that have passed since Pentacost) will be resurrected and all present believers at that time will meet the Lord in the clouds/air . At that time they will receive glorified bodies .
This event will usher in the 7 year tribulation.
This event is not to be confused (which it often is) with The Second Coming of Christ in which he literally sets foot on the Mount of Olives.
None of these events have taken place as of yet , but most certainly will.
Much prophecy must be and will be fulfilled.
Prophecy = history (literally) told in advanced.

The Rapture , The Lord (The Groom ) takes His Bride (The Church) away without setting foot on the earth.

The Second Coming , we come back with The Lord as He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

Two very distinct and separate events which have not come to pass as of yet, but most assuredly will.
Amen.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

You are attempting to disconnect 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 from the timing of chapter 5, to make your pretrib doctrine work.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
It must be imported from another location to make your doctrine work.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

You are attempting to disconnect 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 from the timing of chapter 5, to make your pretrib doctrine work.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
It must be imported from another location to make your doctrine work.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

I am not attempting anything of the sort.
You actually however are attempting to spread falsehoods in a attempt to build up you're beliefs.

And the pre-trib doctrine isn't mine.
The pre-trib doctrine is clearly Scriptural.
Also, I never stated that the new covenant wasn't everlasting.
And I never stated that the Church would end .
I did however state that there will be an end to the Church age .
Big difference .
Please articulate you're posts in a manner as to not put words in other peoples mouths as to what you think they mean.
Thank you.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I believe that the protestant communities are under the jurisdiction of the Roman Church.

Please, whoever's reading this, I am not flaming in any way. I am merely expressing my beliefs.

While complaints are anonymous, my sense is, they are only go to be from the poster you are responding to. I am not the sort to complain, in that way, I put my complaints to God and Heaven. I judge in Spirit the believer (or false one posing as a believer).

No believers are shielded by others on their beliefs, everyone stands before God, alone. There is blame to go around, but that blame comes on every single person or angel based on their level of responsibility, and the 'words from their mouth'.

The 'Apostolic Church' bases a large portion of their beliefs on Protestant teachings, this much is clear, from what I have looked into. More importantly, however, you need to do your homework, and consider Christian teachings between you and God.

As the Apostle John told us, 'you do not need a teacher, as the Spirit will guide you into all truth'.

The reason for Orthodox for splitting from Rome was sound, Rome was insisting on and promoting idol worship, which, by that definition, they continue to do, heavily, to this day. The reasons for Protestants splitting with Rome were many, but the time of the Reformation - by any standard - the Church of Rome was heavily corrupted. That corruption was 'top down'.

The amount and depravity of teachings they had which were false were many and deep.

They have been cleansed from a lot of that, but they remain with strong false beliefs and doctrines, many of which go back to the fifth century AD when they really started to become one with the State of Rome.

I can not see any reason to break off and create your own church, except for expansionist reasons for that particular church.

There is no reason to judge any believer as not being a believer because they do not belong to this or that church. Believing one is only saved because if they go to a specific "church" makes the doctrines of that "church" the 'Word of God' and a 'new Law'. It therefore, effectively, denies salvation by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, and replaces Jesus with the authorities for the church.

Paul spoke of this well, when believers were saying 'I am of this teacher' or 'I am of that teacher', 'should not all be of Christ', 'who is this teacher, or is that teacher, did they die on the cross for you'?

So, I, personally, as are many, are of Christ and follow Jesus and his teachings. We do not promote some other Gospel, or some other message.

This is, clearly, the superior and right message.

 

[Reborn1977]

I have heard Christians argue over these issues for decades. In the grand scheme of living for Christ what position you take on this issue matters little.
If you understand the rapture and believe, then you will be gone.
If you understand the mark of the beast, you will not take it.
If you are familiar with the actions and traits of the anti-christ, you will not listen or follow.
If you aware of the signs of the end, you can watch and pray.
If you are empowered by the Holy Spirit, you will seek to live for Christ and create a better world regardless.
If you love Christ and belong to Christ, you will both be covered by Christ and know what to do when the time comes - - - does anything else really matter in the end?