Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[Dave L]

You seem to believe you know everything in regards to Revelation, so I am not sure how I can be of service to you. You have also stated I am not a believer, and you have stated that Jesus began the Millennium with his first coming, though you conceded that initial believers of Revelation did not hold this view -- your argument seems to be, they were incorrect to do so.

There are too many problems with a physical kingdom apart from a new thread. It would hijack this thread. Jesus said; “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” (Matthew 12:28) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

And, when did Jesus and the other disciples affirm Revelation 20 and the Millennium started?

Where, for this matter, do you see Revelation as splitting off to have the events of Revelation 20 happen? Or, do you not see it ever splitting of, at all? For instance, many amillenialists believe it split off before the second woe. Others believe none of the events which happened before the second woe and before Revelation 20 have happened.

There is no millennium. So they didn't say when it started. Jesus said this about the kingdom; “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” (Matthew 12:28) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Why Dave?
What is wrong with the Book of Revelation that clearly indicates a literal 1,000 year reign ?
The Book of Revelation is part of The Word of God.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ , which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ , and of all things that he saw.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth , and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Do you reject The Word of God ?
Do you reject the words of His prophecy?
For example the three verses I just provided?
How about Revelation 20:2-7?
Do you reject that as well?
You know the 1,000 LITERAL reign of Christ.
A prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Amillennialism and The Book of Revelation just don't jive do they Dave?
No, they don't.
I will stand with The Word of God friend not the theology of Amillennialism.

Prophecy = history told in advanced.
The 1,000 literal reign of Christ as prophesied will come to pass. Make no mistake about it.

There has to be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ for many of the promises and prophecies regarding the nation of Israel to be fulfilled.
That truth just cannot be ignored.

The 1000 years represent Satan's binding, not the kingdom. When the 1000 years end, Satan is loosed to attack the kingdom. = The kingdom still here when the 1000 years end.

 

[Fascinated With God]

By the time of Pentecost, Peter taught Amillennialism in Acts 2. “So then, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31) (NET)

There are 2 resurrections which this verse makes no distinction between. That doesn't help with determining the chronology in Revelation.

And Paul likewise said; “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:25–26) (KJV 1900)

The verse before makes it clear that this is in the future:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:24​

After which point Christ will reign forever and "every knee shall bow" (Romans 14:11, Philip 2:10), which could not happen before the events of Ezekiel 37.

=======================

Imagine an army of 144,000 with the power of angels. That is the issue posed at the outset of the Bible:

He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and live forever.
Genesis 3:22​

Eating from the Tree of Life is what resurrection is all about. It is the resolution of the problem posed at the outset of the Bible.

I will give to eat from the Tree of Life
Revelation 2:7

On either side of the river [of the water of life] was the Tree of Life
Revelation 22:2​

 

[Dave L]

There are 2 resurrections which this verse makes no distinction between. That doesn't help with determining the chronology in Revelation.

The verse before makes it clear that this is in the future:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:24​

After which point Christ will reign forever and "every knee shall bow" (Romans 14:11, Philip 2:10), which could not happen before the events of Ezekiel 37.

=======================

Imagine an army of 144,000 with the power of angels. That is the issue posed at the outset of the Bible:

He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and live forever.
Genesis 3:22​

Eating from the Tree of Life is what resurrection is all about. It is the resolution of the problem posed at the outset of the Bible.

I will give to eat from the Tree of Life
Revelation 2:7

On either side of the river [of the water of life] was the Tree of Life
Revelation 22:2​

The first resurrection is the new birth. Notice; “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” (Ephesians 2:4–6) (KJV 1900)

So when Rev 20 speaks of two resurrections, this resurrection is part of the resurrection of the Just completed on the last day, followed by the resurrection of the damned.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29) (KJV 1900)

 

[twin.spin]

There are 2 resurrections which this verse makes no distinction between. That doesn't help with determining the chronology in Revelation.

Revelation was not written to be understood as a chronological time line of events as Millennialism conceives it.
That's one of the error's of Millennialism. By it's improper reading of OT\NT, it ultimately is guilty of attempting to predict the return. Jesus is only returning once for the purpose as written (for example Jude 1:14-15).

 

[Fascinated With God]

Revelation was not written to be understood as a chronological time line of events as Millennialism conceives it.
That's one of the error's of Millennialism. By it's improper reading of OT\NT, it ultimately is guilty of attempting to predict the return. Jesus is only returning once for the purpose as written (for example Jude 1:14-15).

The two different resurrections, one for the firstfruits and a 2nd for the rest of humanity, is quite clear in Revelation. It's not one at death and one at the final judgment, it clearly refers to two different groups.

Two different returnings is a fanciful interpretation. That is quite a strawman.

 

[Erik Nelson]

every history book calls the Byzantine empire the "1000 year Christian empire"

 

[Fascinated With God]

every history book calls the Byzantine empire the "1000 year Christian empire"

Which relates to Revelation in what manner?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Most of the leading proponents of your doctrine ignore the New Covenant, because they know it kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Some even claim the New Covenant is not in effect yet.

The original proponents of your doctrine claimed that God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
See the book "Things to Come" by Dwight Pentecost.
One of my Sunday School teachers taught from the book at one of our former church bodies that taught Dispensational Theology.

You seem to not be aware of what the founders of your doctrine taught.

They also taught that the Church is God's eternal heavenly people, while Israel is God's eternal earthly people.
Old time Dispensationalist Clearance Larkin added, "And never the twain shall meet."


.

Wow! Three times you said "your doctrine".
And , I will say to you AGAIN that what I believe is not mine or anyone else's "doctrine" , but rather what I believe the Scriptures state.
None of what you posted is what I nor many others that I know believe.
You do not know what you speak of.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

There are too many problems with a physical kingdom apart from a new thread. It would hijack this thread. Jesus said; “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” (Matthew 12:28) (KJV 1900)

Quite the contrary.
There are to many problems without a physical kingdom during the 1,000 year reign.
Many prophecies and promises (especially to the nation of Israel) have not been fulfilled yet.
They will during the literal (physical) reign of Christ during the literal 1,000 years.

 

[Dave L]

Quite the contrary.
There are to many problems without a physical kingdom during the 1,000 year reign.
Many prophecies and promises (especially to the nation of Israel) have not been fulfilled yet.
They will during the literal (physical) reign of Christ during the literal 1,000 years.

Here's your big problem. “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

So none of the promises apply to former Israel. Only to Christ and believers who are biblical Israel.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Here's your big problem. “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

So none of the promises apply to former Israel. Only to Christ and believers who are biblical Israel.

Actually that isn't a problem muchless a big one for me as you say.
The Church has not replaced Israel and God never breaks His promises, and all prophecy will be fulfilled.
Where in the Scriptures does it state that Christ and believers are biblical Israel?

 

[Dave L]

Actually that isn't a problem muchless a big one for me as you say.
The Church has not replaced Israel and God never breaks His promises, and all prophecy will be fulfilled.
Where in the Scriptures does it state that Christ and believers are biblical Israel?

That's your biggest problem. Jesus IS Israel in the New Covenant along with believers. And the broken off Jews will be reattached to Israel only through him (Romans 11).

 

[LastSeven]

He reigns until he has his enemies under his feet which is the thousand year reign of the rod of iron. Only after that is completed does Christ end that certain reign and judgment day comes and death will be defeated for anyone because death is cast into the LOF.
.

Exactly my point. He reigns until he's defeated all his enemies, the last of which is death. And then the thousand years comes to an end. So when death is swallowed up in victory (at Jesus return and our resurrection) his reign ends, as he hands over the kingdom to God the father.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

That's your biggest problem. Jesus IS Israel in the New Covenant along with believers. And the broken off Jews will be reattached to Israel only through him (Romans 11).

Once again no problem muchless big.
You ignored the rest of my post.
The Church does not replace Israel and God keeps His promises. Promises regarding the nation of Israel that have not been fulfilled yet.
They will be fulfilled however during the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ .
The problem you have is trying to force replacement theology into the mix which is not Scriptural at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dave L said: ↑
By the time of Pentecost, Peter taught Amillennialism in Acts 2. “So then, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31) (NET)

Fascinated With God said: ↑
There are 2 resurrections which this verse makes no distinction between. That doesn't help with determining the chronology in Revelation.

twin.spin said: ↑
Revelation was not written to be understood as a chronological time line of events as Millennialism conceives it.
That's one of the error's of Millennialism. By it's improper reading of OT\NT, it ultimately is guilty of attempting to predict the return. Jesus is only returning once for the purpose as written (for example Jude 1:14-15).

The two different resurrections, one for the firstfruits and a 2nd for the rest of humanity, is quite clear in Revelation. It's not one at death and one at the final judgment, it clearly refers to two different groups.
Two different returnings is a fanciful interpretation. That is quite a strawman.

Luke, Paul and John the Revelator appear to agree with you, as do I. Note Revelation 14:14-16

I hadn't really paid that much attention to the used of Luke's singular "cloud" in Luke 21:27 until I noticed it was used 1 each in Matt and Mark/Transfiguration] 5 times in Luke , 4 times in Acts and Epistles, and and 5 times in Revelation

I will attempt to put the end time events in order as much as is possible. This is a work in progress. Any comments much appreciated.........

Voice out of the cloud at the Transfiguration:

Luke 9:34
And a Voice came out of the cloud, saying,
“This is My beloved Son. Be ye hearing Him!”

Here is Luke saying the same thing as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 concerning the "END":

Luke 21:
9 and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first,
but the End<5056> is not immediately.'

Unlike Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Luke uses the singular "cloud" concerning the parousia/coming of the Lord:

27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Here is Jesus being taken up, and a cloud hides Him from sight after His resurrection:

Acts 1:9
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched,
He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Here Paul mentions Christ as a first-fruit:

1 Corointhians 15:23
and each in his proper order, a first-fruit<536> Christ,

afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his parousia<2952>

And then the End<5046>

Here is Christ, the Firstfruit after resurrecting and ascending in the cloud in Acts 1:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man,
clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

Here is His "parousia" in the cloud, getting ready to reap the harvest [and gather up the 2 witnesses:

Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped

Here are those 2 witnesses [it could also be a "multitude", not just 2 individuals?] being called up to the One sitting upon the cloud in Revelation

1 Corointhians 15:23
and each in his proper order, a firstfruit<536> Christ,
.......afterwards those who are the Christ's, in His parousia<2952>......

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

Revelation 14:4.......These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being Firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Matthew 13:30
‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ' ”

G5056 (NKJV)

Jesus tells this 4th Assembly in Thyatira [the one with Jezebel] to hang in there till the END:
Kindgdom Bible Studies THYATIRA

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches............

Revelation 2:26
20 “Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman/wife Jezebel,............
26 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the End<5056>, to him I will give power over the nations—

Then the END...kaput, finished"

Luke 21:
9 and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first,
but the End<5056> is not immediately.'

1 Corointhians 15:23
.........And then the End<5056>................

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me, “It is finished[5056>!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End<5056>. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Same thing Jesus said on the Cross at His crucifixion:

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished<5055>!”
And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Acts 13:29
“Now when they finish<5055> all that was written concerning Him,
they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.

.

 

[Dave L]

Once again no problem muchless big.
You ignored the rest of my post.
The Church does not replace Israel and God keeps His promises. Promises regarding the nation of Israel that have not been fulfilled yet.
They will be fulfilled however during the 1,000 literal year reign of Christ .
The problem you have is trying to force replacement theology into the mix which is not Scriptural at all.

The promises are not to the broken off Jews. They are to Christ and believers. The broken off Jews have only one option. Receive Christ and inherit the promises through him, or remain Antichrists as depicted by John.

 

[BABerean2]

Wow! Three times you said "your doctrine".
And , I will say to you AGAIN that what I believe is not mine or anyone else's "doctrine" , but rather what I believe the Scriptures state.
None of what you posted is what I nor many others that I know believe.
You do not know what you speak of.

If it was in the Bible, it would not have taken almost 1800 years to find it...

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

In Rev 20 the 1000 years represents Satan's binding by the saints who rule over him. When the 1000 years end, he is loosed. He then attacks the kingdom. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom.

Where in Scripture does state , " Satan's binding by the saints who rule over him", ?