Quoting out of context ought to do the job for ya...
... And further more what does this prove?
Exactly what it says, that Macedonia was cut off culturally from southern Greece. Macedonians were, for a long time, forbidden to participate in the Olympics. I quoted source on that too. It was not out of context, and was concise enough to make the point that the Macedonians were not considered "true Greeks".
Yeah what are 17 years opposite to eons...you said it right? what to prove? The friction is not the ONLY evident here but also the TRUTH...too...
I'm sorry, but even Greece was not a Parliamentary Democracy until 1975. While I will grant that history of Greece and Macedonia is vast, you cannot compare the dates of the current form of government and to the history as a whole. If we're going there, then Greece only has 33 years of history, NOT eons.
Do we NEED to split it further? why? so that we can become weaker economically?
It would be nice if we were together, in a sense, the EU or other economic cooporation. We aren't the ones preventing that.
What conspiracy you are the ones who started this whole thing... It could have been solved without any intervation from anyone... You are the ones who brought in the US into this and the UN...for support...
I beg to differ. I don't blame the former president Gligorov for trying to preserve the foundation the country is based on. At the time of the talks, Greece withdrew, thwarted its UN power with the embargo, refusal to let Macedonia ascend into other international organizations with the VETO. THAT's what got the US and UN involved. We work with the UN and the US, among other things to send soldiers to Iraq--36 of which have returned today and safe I'm happy to say. I for one am happy for their help and that we can work together.
It is not gossip it is reality. You lobbied the US and got away with a name you do not deserve to have... The evidence is all here...
So you say... You have not proof ....Historians from this century or 'slanted information" taken out of their context... that is evidence??
Your granda is a "transplant" of the area... That does not mean she is Greek. She is slavo-macedonian since she is a "habitant" of that province. She is not Greek by no means. The name Macedonia does qualify someone who is Greek period. And that is evidence for stealing someone's identity?
Lots of minorities live in different places according to your logic... they should call them selves that.. the name of that peticular province they identify with.. .i.e. Mexicans who lived in New York should go back and re-name their country as New York... since that specific minority of Mexicans lived in New York... this is ridiculous see how "seriourly mess-up" is your logic... or the Turks in Thrace go back to Turkey and change their name to Trace?
Our logic differs in that you only refer to Greeks as Macedonians, and I refer to the people who have constantly lived here by that group; it is a main point in the whole issue and you are writing to your logic and I to mine. People have ALWAYS occupied the territory of Macedonia. It is not a simple matter of geography. They didn't just magically appear with the slavics. They blended, developed, added to their own culture, and the language developed along with it. That is why someone living here has a right to be called Macedonian. That is why the Grandma is not incorrect by stating she is as well. There are many historical references to Macedonians, that are NOT Greek:
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html
But, you will say this is biased, propoganda, slanted--despite these samples come from every point of history. We can go back and forth until we are blue in the face for this. The fact that we do have help--ie; The US, UN, should say something about you trying to use powers to bully a developing nation with a rich history, culture, and people. Every person who has lived and died for their Macedonia has a right to their identity.
I knew you were going to use Demosthenes... the displeased Athenian Congersman with the agenda against the Athenians...how lovely and conveniet indeed...
You defenately have to see that different sqabbles among Greece would allow for "boo-boos" like these... Like said before the city states were independent . Repeating my self is no problem at all for me... Each one had different names yet they were all Greece...They called each other names so what? Like politicians in our days do not accuse each other of being lesser than patriotic? or "clean blood" patriot??
It was so much more than that with Demosthenes. He not only called Phillip a barbarian-ie: Non-greek, he said
"not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks" . I think it's very clear that Demosthenes considered Philip and his people Non-Greeks, not simply barbarians. And, there is so much more to show that Demosthenes DEFINATELY conisidered the Macedonians non-Greeks. I didn't choose that quote for one simple insult, here's about 40 more:
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/demosthenes.html
The language was a dialect like the Athenian and the Corinthian and so forth. Languages differ from place to place.. The toponymia is where we see that they are the same... Evidence again esp. historical very important here... Coins? All greek city states had their own that is a moot point too..
So, the quote from Alexander regarding the address to his army wasn't clear enough huh?
Even so, That was Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case" There is no need for any explanation.
Here are a few quotes from Eugene Borza, who is on your "80 authors of Macedonia is Greek website"
[2] "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture". ("In the Shadow of Olympus -The Emergence of Macedon", p. 94.)
"As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."
"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonian spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)
"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)
"As a question of method: why would an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"
We do know maybe you do not but the toponimia are obviously Greek and no doubt about it... I do not see the point. Greeks lived there they were Macedonian Greeks and they wrote about it.. So what is your point?
There is written evidence to show that Macedonians had a language very different from Greek. It is not enough to construct the entire language, but it shows that more than Greek was written and spoken by the Macedonians. That is what John Shay meant when he said there aren't many written records. Some of those samples are at the local museum here, and I will stop by when I can.
You are quoting those writers for what ? Again Macedonian Greeks were as Greek as the next guy... You are taking them out of context while Ariadni gave you a full text for those who can read they can also think...ya know.
My first question to you is why someone who lives in an area with no name...
from an ancsestory who is -lets say -A to adopt another identity B he does not deserve, saying at the same time that he is not A identity neither a B... This does not make any sense.. You brought forth that hypothesis...
-also you cannot prove anscestory
-cannot prove historicity either historically-.
-cannot prove it archeologically-
We have a name, and it's not my problem if you don't like it or recognize it. Many simply refer to this country as Macedonia. On every atlas (like National Geographic), encyclopedia (like Britanika), newspaper (like New York Times), and TV media (like CNN), Macedonia is referred simply as Macedonia. Even the US Secretary of State Warren Christopher, and Defense Secretary William Perry, speak of Macedonians and refer to Macedonia as Macedonia. Matthew Nimitz, the US mediator in the Greek - Macedonian talks has said that "the country has an Constitutional name - Republic of Macedonia" and that besides the opposing of Greece, Macedonia was admitted at UN under the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but that is "only a reference and not name".
Diplomats will work out the solution in good time. I think the current pressure will finally yield a solution. We have anscestory, history, and archeology, but not according the theory you subscribe to. What you will call reputable historians propaganda is also not my problem.
Also what would the purpose of a name like even "north macedonia" mean to you?
How this makes you proud as people? Knowing that Alexander the Great is from our Province? How is this logical? To belong to a country where your "hero" lived in another? Imagine having Washington as my forefather and I live in Brazil..calling it Washingtona? . Nice... lol... How is this not an agenda? How is this not planning ahead to "free" the rest of Macedonia and claim it as your land?? There are many unanswered questions that remain with this issue... and it is not that Greeks are being unreasonable rather the opposite.
It would be a solution, a chance to move on, to be in NATO and the EU, and continue progressing. Actually, many people today think of Goce Delcev as the modern liberator of Macedonia. He was martyred in a stand against the Ottoman Empire in Krusevo:
http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/goce.htm
And it is heros like him that we fight to preserve our identity.
You keep pointing the finger at a hidden "agenda" based on territorial claims when that is no longer possible. I think the thing that probably scares Greeks the most in the Macedonian Constitution is this:
- "The Republic of Macedonia cares for the statue and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries, as well as Macedonian ex-parties, assists their cultural development and promotes links with them."
Athens sees Article 49 to be a direct threat for the security of Greece because Macedonia cares for the people in Greece who consider themselves Macedonians. How can a country of two million be a danger to Greece's ten million? Furthermore, Greece has also similar article in her Constitution, as any other country in the world, to care for her minorities in the neighboring countries. Should Albania, Bulgaria, and Turkey, urge the world not to recognize Greece because of her Constitution to care for her minorities in these neighboring countries? It is not an agenda to reclaim land, it is an ingrain right and common practice all over the world. I will answer to your "treatment" of the ethnic minority in Macedonia in anther post.
How it is possible that the Western countries have chosen to follow "democratic" Greece where lies prevail over the truth? The European Court found the Greek embargo illegal and put Greece on trial, but did nothing to stop it while it was so harmful to the Macedonian economy. The Innerim accord stated that Greece will not prevent Macedonia from becoming a member of other international organizations, but the Veto has been a violation of that agreement. How does this not have some political favor behind it or some kind of agenda? Money? Influence? Call this illegal activity fair and democratic?
Blessings.
