Luther vs Catholic Church

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

Anyway, Luther started quite a battle didn't he!

He was right about quite a few things I agree. The church was lashing against the rocks for sure. But, it did eventually escape from those rocks!

Luther did help to free it.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
As I have said repeatedly, I did once consider becoming Catholic, but then I actually looked into what is taught, in light of the word of God. I have attended Mass many times personally, and I have read a lot of the Catechism. I am not ignorant as you suppose.

Well, you were drawn away due to untruths obviously, or lack of understanding.

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Well, you were drawn away due to untruths obviously, or lack of understanding.

There you go again, insinuating that I am not intelligent enough to understand what the Catholic Catechism teaches in comparison to the Bible.

It's just far easier for you to dismiss people as ignorant it seems. That's unfortunate. But, your choice.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
There you go again, insinuating that I am not intelligent enough to understand what the Catholic Catechism teaches in comparison to the Bible.

It's just far easier for you to dismiss people as ignorant it seems. That's unfortunate. But, your choice.

Do you think you have been led by the Holy Spirit?

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Mountainmike said:
And your mountain of words cannot conceal the obvious fact that what I said is provably true.

Sola scriptura ( any version of it) is easily provable false, just as I did, and there are other proofs too. Simple logic.

And that sola scriptura ( any version of it) and enabling all to interpret it " their way" is why reformationist Christianity has fractured into 10000 pieces, and continues to fracture. So we can know it is not the truth, our Lord said his church will be one, and a house divided cannot stand.

Go back to early times, and New Testament scripture is provably not the mechanism our Lord gave to hand on the truth , he gave us apostles and succession not a book, a process called paradosis " tradition" , and gave authority to councils and Peter to decide matters of doctrine.

Without that authority of councils you would neither have a New Testament or a creed.

Your haze of words and scriptural references can change it not a jot.

Mike, I provided you a mountain of evidence Jesus Christ and His apostles used Holy Scriptures to prove truth claims in both word and power. If you want to refute the Scriptures themselves, you can try. Here are the posts again:

redleghunter said:
Your assertion fails. Why? Because Christ and His apostles proved truth claims on the very Scriptures in both Word and Power.

We can start with 2Tim. 3:14-17: “things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of” refers to the general body of Scriptural Truth that was conveyed by his example and words, and which statement is followed by the affirmation of the Scripture as being wholly inspired and able to make one “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

It is by Scripture that Truth claims are to be examined and established by, as Scripture is the only transcendent, substantive body of Truth that is affirmed to be wholly inspired of God.

But don't take my word but the facts:

Partial list of references to Divine written revelation being written (Scripture) and references to it, substantiating the claim that as they were written, the written word became the standard for obedience and in establishing truth claims. In full, the New Testament is stated to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations and more than 1,000 if one includes indirect or partial quotations, while another counts 275 direct quotes and at least 600 allusions to the Old (view many of both here. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary reports "the fourth edition of the United Bible Societies' Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. (Old Testament in the New Testament, the - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online)

Many of which tabulations may count those in duplicate accounts. The following list does not include all of the quotations and rarely includes simple allusions to Scripture (versus clear references such as to the law), but supplies a multiplicity of viewable (place mouse over reference, and if you cannot see them use a different browser, like Firefox) references to what was written or quotes thereof, including internal references within each Testament to Scripture (not just the New referencing the Old):

Ex. 17:14; 24:4,7,12; 31:18; 32:15; 34:1,27; 35:29; Lv. 8:36; 10:10,11; 26:46; Num. 4:5,37,45,49; 9:23; 10:13; 15:23; 16:40; 27:23; 33:2; 36:13; Dt. 4:13; 5:22; 9:10; 10:2,4; 17:18,19; 27:3,8; 28:58,61; 29:20,21,27; 30:10; 31:9,11,19,22,26; 33:4; Josh. 1:7,8; 8:31,32,34,35; 10:13; 14:2; 20:2; 21:2; 22:5,9; 23:6; 24:26; Jdg. 3:4; 1Sam. 10:25; 2Sam. 1:8; 1Ki. 2:3;8:53,56; 12:22; 2Ki. 1:8; 14:6; 17:37; 22:8,10,13,16; 23:2,21; 1Ch. 16:40; 17:3,9; 2Ch. 23:18; 25:4; 31:3; 33:8;34:13-16,18,19,21,24; 34:30; 35:6,12; Ezra 3:2,4; 6:18; Neh. 6:6; 8:1,3,8,15,18; 9:3,14; 10:34,36; 13:1; Psa. 40:7; Is. 8:20; 30:8; 34:16; 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 25:13; 30:2; 36:2,6,10,18,27,28; 51:60; Dan. 9:11,13; Hab. 2:2;

Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56;27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24;3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33;10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19

redleghunter said:
Mike I just laid out to you the very words of Christ and His apostles appealing to the written inspired Words of God to prove truth claims and refute those in error.

Here's an easier to read list of "it is written"

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Christ and His apostles did not say "tradition tells us" or "I heard this from someone." They use the written Word to prove their points.

Most notable is how Christ directs the disciples in Luke 24 to the Scriptures in order to understand His death and resurrection. Jesus cites the Law, Prophets and Psalms (writings) TaNaKh.

Irenaeus knew this well:

Against Heresies Book III. CH 1

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

amariselle · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Do you think you have been led by the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I believe that all true Christians are. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, and He is faithful to His promises.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Mountainmike said:
Without that authority of councils you would neither have a New Testament or a creed.

The Holy Spirit is subject to councils or the other way around?

You might have missed this one from Irenaeus:

Against Heresies Book III. CH 1

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

An early church father who echoed the understanding of the Church at that time. He clearly states the NT books were authoritative because the apostles wrote them. Not because they (church fathers or councils) deemed them authoritative.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
But, as you know, the Catholic Church works on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It always has. We are guided by the Holy Spirit in the church. Ours has Apostolic Tradition. The CC was not born out of the reformation. No, it has been around since the day of Pentecost.

That's an assertion. Now prove it.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
God's one!

Which one?

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Mountainmike said:
And I laid out the proof you are wrong.
Sola scriptura (any of the variants) is a self defeating logical proposition using night follows day logic.

That's not a 'proof' and I'm sure you know that.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
If you knew about what goes on in a Catholic church you would know that the slot for the money is for the cost of the candle only! And then one can offer up prayers for anybody for Mary to intercede. The money is not what you think it is for! Yet another non Catholic who is utterly lost in how the CC works!

If you mean the general donations, I agree. Instead you get sent envelopes with your name and address on it, so when you drop the envelope in the basket it ensures the parish knows who is giving.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
And, did not Luther regret what he started?

Don't think so. As I pointed out to you last night (maybe you just did not get to the post)

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Regret the Reformation?

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
I don't believe there's any evidence that he did.

But "what he started" can be made to mean almost anything that the speaker wants it to mean, can't it? I've seen people try to pin World War II on Luther, for example.

Good source here:

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Regret the Reformation?

In many of the 'regret' misquotes Luther is expounding on the Gospel and how the Reformation made the light shine on mankind's fallen nature all the more, thus making the world a bigger mess. In most of these out of context quotes Luther is speaking of things getting worse (wars, greed, lust etc.) as the end nears. Some are very apocalyptic in tone.

Expanded discussion in above link. I guess Luther suffered from a poor media staff like Pope Francis is accused of having....

Monk Brendan · Jul 31, 2017

Albion said:
A vow that the church had no right to extract from him. Would you say the same about a Hitler Youth member who gave his oath to die for Hitler and later decided it had been wrong to do? Luther, you know, came to believe that the church went against God's laws, the laws of nature, in denying marriage--and he was known to hold these beliefs years before he met his future wife, while he was still completely disinterested in marrying anyone himself.

WRONG! Nobody seems to understand that every chance to bug out is given to the candidate before tonsure or ordination, and it is a VOLUNTARY thing. You don't call yourself to the priesthood, or to the monastic life, and if you have a problem with ANY of the rules, you can get out of "prison" free and clear. The Church does not, and never did extract a vow. I don't know of a single member of the clergy that was ordained at the point of a sword or with a gun in his back.

As far as believing that the Church has no right to deny marriage, yes, they do have the right. For instance, incest is still a sin. Marrying after divorce is just as forbidden as it was in Jesus time, when He spoke against it. True, you can get a no-fault divorce, and you can still continue in your life of grace. But the Church will not bless another marriage unless the first one has been annulled. And a bill of nullity is not an easy thing to get. There is an appearance before a board, usually headed by a priest, that gathers data. For instance, was there sexual intercourse between the couple? Are there any children? Has either partner committed adultery? You see, Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”

Marriage is another voluntary oath that two people make, to each other, and to God. This is why the Church will not bless a divorced person marrying another.

Yes, you can marry outside of church. Lots of people do every day, but that doesn't make it a Sacrament. And for all the time you are married, the Church MAY reserve the right to withhold any of the other Sacraments.

But even in a non-church wedding, two people are making vows to each other, AND TO GOD! If they break that vow, except for extreme reasons, supposedly they are stuck with it. In Malachi 2:16 (KJV) it says, “For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.” Putting away in other translations is DIVORCE.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
But, as you know, the Catholic Church works on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It always has. We are guided by the Holy Spirit in the church. Ours has Apostolic Tradition. The CC was not born out of the reformation. No, it has been around since the day of Pentecost.

Second time you have provided the same quote probably from an RCIA manual. Now show the evidence what you quoted is true.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

amariselle said:
Yes, I believe that all true Christians are. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, and He is faithful to His promises.

So, why cannot the Catholic Church be full of the Holy Spirit then? Why only you?

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

redleghunter said:
That's an assertion. Now prove it.

Faith and the Gospel prove it. On this Rock.........proof!

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

redleghunter said:
If you mean the general donations, I agree. Instead you get sent envelopes with your name and address on it, so when you drop the envelope in the basket it ensures the parish knows who is giving.

See the link above on devotional candles.

Goatee · Jul 31, 2017

redleghunter said:
Second time you have provided the same quote probably from an RCIA manual. Now show the evidence what you quoted is true.

You are Peter (Rock) and on this Rock I will build my church......

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2017

Goatee said:
Jesus also told His Apostles to go out and forgiven sins or retain sins.

Within what context? All sins? What is the official Roman Catholic interpretation on the verses you paraphrase?

Or were you referring to the authority given to local churches to employ church discipline as in 1 Corinthians 5:1-12 and Matthew 18:15-20?

Which both references indicate the church can administer discipline (cast out or refuse fellowship) those who will not repent.

Luther vs Catholic Church

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Thank You Jesus!

Jesus Never Fails

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

Thank You Jesus!

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency