Luther vs Catholic Church

[Albion]

You're wearing your fingers out saying nothing with all these posts. Have a nice day; maybe we'll meet again in another discussion.

 

[redleghunter]

The Devil hates the Bible, period. He would rather no one read or studied it for themselves.

Indeed. For Satan is the first to apply eisegesis to corrupt the understanding of Scriptures. Jesus applied exegesis in Matthew 4. There, I would say, you have how the Scriptures are used in error.

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?

 

[amariselle]

Predictable responses from you! Lol

Right....you have failed to provide even one Scripture that tells us there is a place called Purgatory where believers must go for an unknown amount of time to have their sins purified/purged.

And you have also repeatedly refused to acknowledge the Scriptures I shared that contradict this belief.

 

[Goatee]

Right....you have failed to provide even one Scripture that tells us there is a place called Purgatory where believers must go for an unknown amount of time to have their sins purified/purged.

And you have also repeatedly refused to acknowledge the Scriptures I shared that contradict this belief.

Lol. Predictable.

I gave you scripture a few posts up. (post 291) You did not accept them. That's your choice my friend!

 

[Goatee]

You're wearing your fingers out saying nothing with all these posts. Have a nice day; maybe we'll meet again in another discussion.

That's rich coming from you! Lol

 

[Mountainmike]

That's not a 'proof' and I'm sure you know that.

The logic is bullet proof.
QED
Sola scriptura is provably false in several ways.
And as a scientist, yes I do know that.

 

[Mountainmike]

That's not a 'proof' and I'm sure you know that.

Yes it is cast iron logic,proof, QED
Do I need to repeat it?
And yes as a mathematician/ physicist who spent a lot of time in formal logic, I do know that.


' You say this of your highest and so you deem necessary truth: ( your definition, not mine)

" all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture."

Since scripture nowhere contains your highest truth, by your own definition , it does not contain ALL necessary truth, it omits the truth you hold highest!

QED It is logically false.

Worse still, scripture is not silent. It actively disagrees.

Scripture says " the foundation of truth is the church" - so the very foundation truth is outside scripture in the church, so it specifically denies sola scriptura,
So proving your definition wrong again.

Protestants don't seem to get simple logic.

The statements A " all that is in scripture is ( choose your own adjective ) truth"

And B " all ( choose your own adjective) truth is in scripture"

Are not a logical equivalence,


As a scientist I cannot accept the cognitive dissonance and logical falsehood implied in sola scriptura, it is part of what led me back from Protestant to evangelical to Rome.

 

[amariselle]

Lol. Predictable.

I gave you scripture a few posts up. (post 291) You did not accept them. That's your choice my friend!

Those Scriptures do not support the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, that is why I do not accept them.

I guess Jesus forgot to tell his disciples that His sacrifice would not be sufficient to completely purge their sins, and so they would be going to Purgatory first. I guess He also forgot to tell the thief on the cross that. And I suppose the Holy Spirit failed to reveal it to the inspired Scripture writers. (But worse, the Holy Spirit apparently chose instead to reveal that Christ's sacrifice, received by faith, is completely effective in purging our sins), all the while failing to tell us it isn't, because the flames of Purgatory need to finish the job.

I guess we should be thankful the Catholic Church can set us straight.

 

[Goatee]

Those Scriptures do not support the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, that is why I do not accept them.

I guess Jesus forgot to tell his disciples that His sacrifice would not be sufficient to completely purge their sins, and so they would be going to Purgatory first. I guess He also forgot to tell the thief on the cross that. And I suppose the Holy Spirit failed to reveal it to the inspired Scripture writers. (But worse, the Holy Spirit apparently chose instead to reveal that Christ's sacrifice, received by faith, is completely effective in purging our sins), all the while failing to tell us it isn't, because the flames of Purgatory need to finish the job.

I guess we should be thankful the Catholic Church can set us straight.

Again, predictable post by you. You are getting good! Lol

 

[amariselle]

Again, predictable post by you. You are getting good! Lol

That's the only response you seem to have.

Why not deal with the Scriptures I shared, along with the teaching from the Catholic Catechism?

 

[amariselle]

What Scripture says:

• It is finished! (John 19:28-30)
• It is "the Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world. - (John 1:29)
• There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
• Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:1-3)
• We are "sanctified"/freed from sin/purified by the sacrifice of Christ ("the offering of the body of Christ") once for all. - Hebrews 10:10

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - 2 Corinthians 5:17

Also, Paul wrote (2 Corinthians 5:8) that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. Not that to be absent from the body is to go to Purgatory, for an unknown amount of time, to have remaining sins "purified." The Scripture is clear, Christ's one Sacrifice is in fact enough to purge all sins.

What the Catholic Catechism says:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

[Goatee]

What Scripture says:

• It is finished! (John 19:28-30)
• It is "the Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world. - (John 1:29)
• There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
• Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:1-3)
• We are "sanctified"/freed from sin/purified by the sacrifice of Christ ("the offering of the body of Christ") once for all. - Hebrews 10:10

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - 2 Corinthians 5:17

Also, Paul wrote (2 Corinthians 5:8) that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. Not that to be absent from the body is to go to Purgatory, for an unknown amount of time, to have remaining sins "purified." The Scripture is clear, Christ's one Sacrifice is in fact enough to purge all sins.

What the Catholic Catechism says:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

More predictable posting! You won't convert a Catholic buddy

 

[redleghunter]

When I read scripture I can see how the Catholic church's interpretations are correct.

When I read Scott Hahns interpretations of different scripture I can see how correct it is after reading it myself. I can see that the Holy Spirit is indeed guiding the CC in its truths about scripture.

I am currently reading the Gospel of John, and what I am reading and understanding go hand in hand with how the church sees that Gospel. So far, I have not interpreted anything differently. But then again, I am not a theological scholar like some on here!

How much of the Bible has the Catholic church officially interpreted?

 

[amariselle]

More predictable posting! You won't convert a Catholic buddy

I wish people could see the good news of Scripture. Jesus paid it all!

Even if you choose not to (and your unwillingness to even address the Scriptures I shared is quite telling) hopefully someone else will consider what the word of God actually says.

God bless

 

[Monk Brendan]

So, the Bible is incorrect then when it says that Christ "by Himself purged our sins" and that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is sufficient once for all? (When we receive it by faith).

“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” James 5:16

 

[Goatee]

Enough.

 

[Monk Brendan]

What's that supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that if one doesn't accept the Catholic "Marion doctrines" that one does not believe that Jesus was God???

Don't put words into my mouth! I said that I prefer not to discuss Marion devotion--note, devotion, and not worship--on fora where a lot of people don't believe that Jesus is God. I do not condemn anyone. And I am not saying that if you don't follow Marion doctrine you will not get into heaven--or even that Jesus is not Go. I said what I said.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Since, in the post you're referring to, I was speaking of my own personal experience and the decision I came to through my research, as well as that I love and care for many Catholics, that's not something you have the right to say.

But as I am a Catholic, and I see the faith that I believe in being slandered, I do have the right to say that.

 

[redleghunter]

Satan absolutely loves people who read the Bible! Especially when they read it and come up with so many different interpretation of different passages!

That's interesting as Jesus said the following to Satan:

Matthew 4: NKJV
4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’

and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

 

[Monk Brendan]

I just recommended he read the Bible on his own, guess that can be offensive to some.

Far from it. I am not offended by you telling someone to read the Bible. I agree.