Luther vs Catholic Church

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redleghunter

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And your mountain of words cannot conceal the obvious fact that what I said is provably true.

Sola scriptura ( any version of it) is easily provable false, just as I did, and there are other proofs too. Simple logi
Mike I just laid out to you the very words of Christ and His apostles appealing to the written inspired Words of God to prove truth claims and refute those in error.

Here's an easier to read list of "it is written"

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Christ and His apostles did not say "tradition tells us" or "I heard this from someone." They use the written Word to prove their points.

Most notable is how Christ directs the disciples in Luke 24 to the Scriptures in order to understand His death and resurrection. Jesus cites the Law, Prophets and Psalms (writings) TaNaKh.

Irenaeus knew this well:

Against Heresies Book III. CH 1

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
 
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Mountainmike

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And I laid out the proof you are wrong.
Sola scriptura (any of the variants) is a self defeating logical proposition using night follows day logic.

Look at simple history.
Much as reformatioists would prefer it was not so, it is simple historical fact.
THERE WAS NO NEW TESTAMENT for early Christians, and there would not have been but for councils much later. Are you saying there were no christians till then?.
That was not the way Jesus gave to hand on the faith - he gave us apostles - and they appointed successors!
Which is why Paul said "stay true to tradition we taught you"
Not least because few if any could read, and until very recent times, few could afford a bible even if they could read it.

Reformationists have a bad dose of amnesia. They would prefer to forget the first millenium!



Mike I just laid out to you the very words of Christ and His apostles appealing to the written inspired Words of God to prove truth claims and refute those in error.

Here's an easier to read list of "it is written"

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Christ and His apostles did not say "tradition tells us" or "I heard this from someone." They use the written Word to prove their points.

Most notable is how Christ directs the disciples in Luke 24 to the Scriptures in order to understand His death and resurrection. Jesus cites the Law, Prophets and Psalms (writings) TaNaKh.

Irenaeus knew this well:

Against Heresies Book III. CH 1

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
 
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Goatee

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Well they just kinda changed it a little. The church I went to, St. John The Baptist, Whiting Indiana has two corners, with statues of Mary in each. Each one has a money slot, where you drop your money, light a candle and pray to Mary that your dead loved ones sins be forgiven, they'll be released from purgatory just a little early. No, they aren't selling them.

In Christ
Daniel

If you knew about what goes on in a Catholic church you would know that the slot for the money is for the cost of the candle only! And then one can offer up prayers for anybody for Mary to intercede. The money is not what you think it is for! Yet another non Catholic who is utterly lost in how the CC works!
 
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Goatee

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But there is the problem. YOU cannot interpret scripture, how you like, which is quite clear that nothing impure can enter " the new Jerusalem" . Revelations 21

And since all of us are impure ( and at least most of us admit it) there must inevitably be a process of purgation that " purifies us as if by fire" between leaving here and entering there.

For one and a half millennia , this was believed by all but a few heretics. For sure orthodox ( like other aspects) prefer not to define how, speaking of purgation. Where RCC identifies the intermediate state ( or sometimes characterised as a place )as purgatory. And in that state prayers for the dead have value. As indeed the Septuagint ( the Greek OT the apostles and Jesus quote ) makes reference, and Jewish tradition also holds in Kaddish,

And regardless of that, that is what the scripturally appointed authority of the magisterium tells me is right.

Then along came a few whose logic was not good enough to see the impossibility of sola scriptura, empowering the even more misleading " Priesthood of all believers" ( AKA , we don't want to abolish the pope, we all want to be him) to make up their own interpretation.
The succession was lost and in the inevitable drifting The chaos of ten thousand and counting differing beliefs ensued.

This thread was about Luther, who rightly observed that as a result " there are now as many doctrines as heads" " it is the greatest scandal... every milkmaid now has their own doctrine"

I notice nobody contests that, I am quoting Luther! One of the architects of the mess, who regretted it!

Unlike Luther I wouldn't be rude enough to describe other Christians I disagree with " milkmaids", doesn't alter the fact that in this he was right.

It is also reasonable to conclude that Luther himself believed in purgatory, he questioned aspects of indulgencies, not the state. Luther's core beliefs remained very catholic.

Are you saying , RCC, orthodox ( purgation), Luther and some Lutherans , and others accounting for by far the overwhelming majority of theologians and believers are all wrong, only YOU can interpret correctly? Some would say that is a seriously arrogant position to hold!

And, did not Luther regret what he started?
 
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Albion

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And, did not Luther regret what he started?
I don't believe there's any evidence that he did.

But "what he started" can be made to mean almost anything that the speaker wants it to mean, can't it? I've seen people try to pin World War II on Luther, for example.
 
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Goatee

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What you just explained is not Sola Scriptura but eisegesis.

Perhaps a definition is in order:

The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNAstructures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that “scientific truth,” for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a “more sure Word,” standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is “more sure,” according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore, Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks.

But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary. Nor does sola Scripturaclaim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3).

Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture (cf. Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Rev. 22:18-19). To add to it is to lay on people a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matt. 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That—no more, no less—is what sola Scriptura means.

What Does Sola Scriptura Mean?

“The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

But, as you know, the Catholic Church works on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It always has. We are guided by the Holy Spirit in the church. Ours has Apostolic Tradition. The CC was not born out of the reformation. No, it has been around since the day of Pentecost.
 
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Dan61861

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If you knew about what goes on in a Catholic church you would know that the slot for the money is for the cost of the candle only! And then one can offer up prayers for anybody for Mary to intercede. The money is not what you think it is for! Yet another non Catholic who is utterly lost in how the CC works!
Excuses my friend, I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools all my youth. I know exactly what that money was for. But at least you do not deny it is still happening.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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Goatee

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The Bible says that Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:3) and Jesus Himself said "It is finished! (John 19:28-30)

I don't know what "interpretation" you're trying to suggest I put on these verses, I simply believe they mean what they say.

And if they do mean what they say, then Christ's sacrifice is complete and sufficient, once for all time. Therefore there is no need for a place called Purgatory, and indeed no support for such a place is even once given in Scripture. I think if there was something more to be done for our sins to be purged than what Christ did on the cross, He would have told us. It's pretty important. Instead, the Bible is clear that Christ did it all.

Consider also the verses I shared earlier along with what the Catholic Catechism says:



Again, what "interpretation" can there be for what these verses are saying? If the Bible says Christ's death on the cross is absolutely sufficient for all who have believed on Him, well then, I believe it. It really is that simple. And it is such good news.

Jesus also told His Apostles to go out and forgiven sins or retain sins.
 
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Goatee

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It is, unfortunately, offensive to a lot of people. I wish Christians would all read and study the Bible for themselves, however, it changes everything. :)

And there, you have many Christians who read the Bible and come out with very weird views / interpretations of what they have read. People do get lost in scripture. You only have to look on YouTube to see the weird things some so called Christians come out with on different parts of the Bible!
 
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amariselle

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And there, you have many Christians who read the Bible and come out with very weird views / interpretations of what they have read. People do get lost in scripture. You only have to loom on YouTube to see the weird thing some so called Christians come out with on different parts of the Bible!

Just because some people get "weird" ideas, does not mean people should be discouraged from reading the precious word of God for themselves.

It's a blessing and a privilege to be able to do so, one that countless thousands died for and the many thousands more are still unable to do around the world today.

We should never forget that.
 
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Goatee

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Excuses my friend, I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools all my youth. I know exactly what that money was for. But at least you do not deny it is still happening.

In Christ
Daniel

You certainly don't know what the money is for! You are just spouting untruths.

Ask any Catholic what the money is for. They will tell you the same as have.
 
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Goatee

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Just because some people get "weird" ideas, does not mean people should be discouraged from reading the precious word of God for themselves.

It's a blessing and a privilege to be able to do so, one that countless thousands died for and the many thousands more are still unable to do around the world today.

We should never forget that.

I agree.

But, people do get lost in scripture. The devil loves it when people do not seek spiritual guidance. He loves Sola Scripture people who go off on their own trying go decifer the scriptures!
 
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Albion

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But, as you know, the Catholic Church works on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It always has. We are guided by the Holy Spirit in the church. Ours has Apostolic Tradition. The CC was not born out of the reformation. No, it has been around since the day of Pentecost.
And you just keep on telling yourself that if you need it. Other people need to believe Joseph Smith dug up golden plates engraved with lost Scripture in New York, after all.
 
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Albion

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Just because some people get "weird" ideas, does not mean people should be discouraged from reading the precious word of God for themselves.

It's a blessing and a privilege to be able to do so, one that countless thousands died for and the many thousands more are still unable to do around the world today.

We should never forget that.
If God chose to reveal his will and intentions to mankind through inspiring holy men to write--which he did--it's not going to convince me when someone says we ought not to read it! ^_^
 
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Dan61861

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You certainly don't know what the money is for! You are just spouting untruths.

Ask any Catholic what the money is for. They will tell you the same as did.
repeat...Excuses my friend, I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools all my youth. I know exactly what that money was for. But at least you do not deny it is still happening.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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amariselle

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I agree.

But, people do get lost in scripture. The devil loves it when people do not seek spiritual guidance. He loves Sola Scripture people who go off on their own trying go decifer the scriptures!

The Devil hates the Bible, period. He would rather no one read or studied it for themselves.
 
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Goatee

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repeat...Excuses my friend, I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools all my youth. I know exactly what that money was for. But at least you do not deny it is still happening.

In Christ
Daniel

Utter untruth my friend. Ask any real Catholic.
 
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