Lucifer was worship leader in heaven?

[yeshuasavedme]

That is "possible" but there is nothing to prove it.

All English Bible translators are not aware of the book of Enoch?? seriously??

You will have to do better than that.

If the translators were familiar with the Book of Enoch, then they would NOT have translated "ophan"nim as "wheels".
They are living creatures, terrible creatures, with eyes all around....
Enoch wrote about all the living creatures in heaven that he saw, besides the holy watcher angels. He saw seraphim, cherubim and ophannim.
Enoch 71:7 they sleep not and guard the throne of His Glory.
He does not call them all angels, and some are called "beasts" even by John, in Revelation.
Rev 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:6
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and

Rev 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Rev 12 describes all the fallen angels and thus all demons as "stars" that Satan drew with him in his fall from heaven.

Satan has not fallen from heaven. That is a myth.
The angels in heaven that are satan's host, or army, are evil angels -as Satan is, who is their chief, set over earth since the fall, and they are the principalities and powers of darkness that we wrestle with in this present age.
They got authority over this earth and the dust of all flesh to corrupt/ eat it, at the fall if Adam, who DID get driven out of heaven, where the Garden of Eden is as 2 Cor 7 so states

 

[BobRyan]

Satan has not fallen from heaven.

yes he has.

The angels in heaven that are satan's host, or army, are evil angels -as Satan is,

They are evil angels but they are no longer in heaven.

set over earth since the fall, and they are the principalities and powers of darkness that we wrestle with in this present age.

ok that part is true - but with "limits"

They got authority over this earth

with certain limits.

and the dust of all flesh to corrupt/ eat it, at the fall if Adam

no - fallen angels do not eat dust or "The dust of all flesh"

, who DID get driven out of heaven, where the Garden of Eden is as 2 Cor 7 so states

Adam was never in heaven. He was on Earth and then died after a period of time.
The Garden of Eden was never in heaven in all the 900 years of Adam's life and has nothing to do with fallen angels being called demons with Satan as the prince of demons.

 

[BobRyan]

The holy watchers are not Cherubim nor seraphim nor ophannim.

That is "possible" but there is nothing to prove it.

Ezekiel saw ophannim with the cherubim. Because the translators of the English were ignorant of the Book of Enoch, they translated ophannim as "wheels".

All English Bible translators are not aware of the book of Enoch?? seriously??

You will have to do better than that.
.

All English Bible translators are not aware of the book of Enoch?? seriously??

You will have to do better than that.

If the translators were familiar with the Book of Enoch, then they would NOT have translated "ophan"nim as "wheels".

or you have a problem with that line of logic.

having to rewrite the Bible to get your theories to work is not a good sign.

============

Outline of Biblical Usage [?] -- 'ôp̄ān

1. wheel
   1. chariot wheel
      
      
   2. wheel in Ezekiel's vision
      
      
   3. wheels of the ten bases beneath the lavers in Solomon's temple

 

[Sheth22]

Satan has not fallen from heaven. That is a myth.
The angels in heaven that are satan's host, or army, are evil angels -as Satan is, who is their chief, set over earth since the fall, and they are the principalities and powers of darkness that we wrestle with in this present age.
They got authority over this earth and the dust of all flesh to corrupt/ eat it, at the fall if Adam, who DID get driven out of heaven, where the Garden of Eden is as 2 Cor 7 so states

I’ve recently become aware of the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, whose work in recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible has fundamentally changed the way that I view the Bible/Biblical theology. I’m incredibly intrigued by the views you’ve put forth on this thread about the specifics of the events in Eden, particularly in regards to Adam having been cast down from Eden/paradise to the earth, rather than just cast out of Eden and on to anther patch of earth that wasn’t considered sacred space the way that Eden was. Heiser holds similar views, though not exactly. I’ve read many Biblical theologians who would say that Eden was a place where heaven and earth met. Paradise, the Divine Council, the Tree of life were all there, but it was a sacred, holy place on the earth, sort of like an axis mundi, where heaven and earth met, so to speak. But I’ve never heard the view that Eden wasn’t actually ever a place on earth, but rather in the “third heaven.” I must admit, the idea potentially make sense in light of Revelation. Could you refer me to any theologians/books/websites that espouse this view of things in Genesis? I’m intrigued and would love to do my own research. Thanks

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I’ve recently become aware of the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, whose work in recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible has fundamentally changed the way that I view the Bible/Biblical theology. I’m incredibly intrigued by the views you’ve put forth on this thread about the specifics of the events in Eden, particularly in regards to Adam having been cast down from Eden/paradise to the earth, rather than just cast out of Eden and on to anther patch of earth that wasn’t considered sacred space the way that Eden was. Heiser holds similar views, though not exactly. I’ve read many Biblical theologians who would say that Eden was a place where heaven and earth met. Paradise, the Divine Council, the Tree of life were all there, but it was a sacred, holy place on the earth, sort of like an axis mundi, where heaven and earth met, so to speak. But I’ve never heard the view that Eden wasn’t actually ever a place on earth, but rather in the “third heaven.” I must admit, the idea potentially make sense in light of Revelation. Could you refer me to any theologians/books/websites that espouse this view of things in Genesis? I’m intrigued and would love to do my own research. Thanks

Thank you for a real conversation.
I have no other books to refer you to, but the Word is clear that Paul said he was caught up to Paradise, the third heaven, and Jesus said the Tree of Life is in the midst of Paradise.
Next, did you catch my post commenting about psalm 82?
Psalm 82 :: King James Version (KJV)
Look at the words in the Hebrew, using the concordance in that Psalm.
The warning to that congregation of the "gods" (watcher angels)in verse 7 is that "verily (they will) die (like) Adam (and be) cast down (like that) one prince".

 

[Sheth22]

Thank you for a real conversation.
I have no other books to refer you to, but the Word is clear that Paul said he was caught up to Paradise, the third heaven, and Jesus said the Tree of Life is in the midst of Paradise.
Next, did you catch my post commenting about psalm 82?
Psalm 82 :: King James Version (KJV)
Look at the words in the Hebrew, using the concordance in that Psalm.
The warning to that congregation of the "gods" (watcher angels)in verse 7 is that "verily (they will) die (like) Adam (and be) cast down (like that) one prince".

I had been made aware of Psalm 82 from Heiser’s book, as well as its connection to Deuteronomy 32:8-9, so I did make that connection when I saw you reference them! Having done just a little research already, it seems that the notion of Adam being expelled from the third heaven can be found in The Life of Adam and Eve, a Jewish Apocryphal book, as well as a parallel in 2 Enoch. Apparently, Paul makes two references to The Life of Adam and Eve in 2 Corinthians 11:14 and 2 Corinthians 12:2. So, it seems Paul found that book worthy of quoting. Very intriguing.

 

[Davy]

I’ve recently become aware of the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, whose work in recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible has fundamentally changed the way that I view the Bible/Biblical theology. I’m incredibly intrigued by the views you’ve put forth on this thread about the specifics of the events in Eden, particularly in regards to Adam having been cast down from Eden/paradise to the earth, rather than just cast out of Eden and on to anther patch of earth that wasn’t considered sacred space the way that Eden was. Heiser holds similar views, though not exactly. I’ve read many Biblical theologians who would say that Eden was a place where heaven and earth met. Paradise, the Divine Council, the Tree of life were all there, but it was a sacred, holy place on the earth, sort of like an axis mundi, where heaven and earth met, so to speak. But I’ve never heard the view that Eden wasn’t actually ever a place on earth, but rather in the “third heaven.” I must admit, the idea potentially make sense in light of Revelation. Could you refer me to any theologians/books/websites that espouse this view of things in Genesis? I’m intrigued and would love to do my own research. Thanks

Well, if you really want an introduction to Gnosticism, then believe that junk that Eden in Genesis 2 was in Heaven with Adam in Heaven also. That idea fits right in with the occult Neo-Platonist thinking.

 

[JulieB67]

Thanks, but I got that part and I'm well aware of what a Cherub is. What I was asking is if you have any evidence that the specific passage refers to Satan himself. I see so much written about it, but there's nothing concrete to say that's who it refers to. It implies that God randomly changes the focus of His words during the statement, which makes no sense whatsoever, imho.

Hello, I really do think it's all about context. The Isaiah 14 scriptures which totally align with Paul's teaching in 2nd Thessalonians, -together with the scriptures in Genesis and Ezekiel give you a complete picture of Satan, his sin, his future as playing Savior and his ultimate downfall. Of course the scriptures in Revelation as well. But taking it all into account, a really good overall picture.

Ez 28 has him in the garden which totally identifies Satan. And Isaiah 14 and 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 has him sitting on the throne proclaiming to be God. He wanted God's throne back then and will eventually sit on the temple mount proclaiming to be God. But he is the fake. Paul says he will be disguised as an angel of light. We must be on guard.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I’ve recently become aware of the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, whose work in recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible has fundamentally changed the way that I view the Bible/Biblical theology. I’m incredibly intrigued by the views you’ve put forth on this thread about the specifics of the events in Eden, particularly in regards to Adam having been cast down from Eden/paradise to the earth, rather than just cast out of Eden and on to anther patch of earth that wasn’t considered sacred space the way that Eden was. Heiser holds similar views, though not exactly. I’ve read many Biblical theologians who would say that Eden was a place where heaven and earth met. Paradise, the Divine Council, the Tree of life were all there, but it was a sacred, holy place on the earth, sort of like an axis mundi, where heaven and earth met, so to speak. But I’ve never heard the view that Eden wasn’t actually ever a place on earth, but rather in the “third heaven.” I must admit, the idea potentially make sense in light of Revelation. Could you refer me to any theologians/books/websites that espouse this view of things in Genesis? I’m intrigued and would love to do my own research. Thanks

I recently finished his book Demons and was impressed with the wide range of analysis on the topic. I'm not sure I agree with some of his ideas, but it's a fascinating look at the celestial rebellions against God throughout the ages. I don't think you're going to find many people that are willing to even analyze an alternative perspective. Many theologians believe that we can't find it now due to the changes caused in the world by the great flood. Personally, I just don't buy that. We've mapped every millimeter of this planet and if it was here on Earth before, I just don't see it being here now, whether we have access to it or not.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I had been made aware of Psalm 82 from Heiser’s book, as well as its connection to Deuteronomy 32:8-9, so I did make that connection when I saw you reference them! Having done just a little research already, it seems that the notion of Adam being expelled from the third heaven can be found in The Life of Adam and Eve, a Jewish Apocryphal book, as well as a parallel in 2 Enoch. Apparently, Paul makes two references to The Life of Adam and Eve in 2 Corinthians 11:14 and 2 Corinthians 12:2. So, it seems Paul found that book worthy of quoting. Very intriguing.

I have only the Book of Enoch [ as to this subject], which is sometimes called 1 Enoch, or Ethiopian Enoch.
Enoch saw the mountain of God in the heavenly realm, but I don’t think he said esp that it was in the third heaven, as Paul delineates.
Paul said he went there, to the third heaven and that he thereby went to Paradise.
One thing to me that stands out is that after the fall of the Tower of Babel, the heavens were closed to our eyes, or, veiled, unless God opened them and people saw the activities that go on over earth in the spiritual realm.
Before the fall of that tower and the ceasing of the building of the city Nimrod was building, men seemed to see the realm because Nimrod and company were building the tower whose top was to it, and they planned to make a name for themselves that would not be cut off....
Methinks he thought they could enter by building a tower, and eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, and live forever. That is my studied opinion, and if I change it, I will tell it. :>)
In the book of Revelation John was shown the things to come, and the city of the saints comes down from heaven to hover over Jerusalem, and after the thousand year millennial day ends, or is at the end, Satan with his armies are let out of Sheol to go forth to deceive people on earth who were born in the millennial reign, but who were never tested and tried....and some join the satanic delusion of ascending up to the city of the saints to take it over....and fire comes down out of heaven and destroys those people, Satan and his evil angelic host are then cast into the Lake of Fire where they are boundaried in for eternity....
Satan then is the Prince of that darkness and that is his kingdom and he will torment -with his satans under him- the fallen seed of Adam who are cast there because they never accepted and or rejected the Ransom paid for their souls, and torment the fallen watcher angels who were also deceived by them.

All the millennial days that Satan was allowed to rule over earth -over Adam’s kingdom which he got control of at the fall- are the days Satan laid up his food -or prepped, as I call it (he was the first prepper), for the eternal ages. After he is boundaried in the Lake of Fire he can never deceive another human being or watcher angel again,forever and forever.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Outline of Biblical Usage [?] -- 'ôp̄ān
wheel
chariot wheel

wheel in Ezekiel's vision

Well sir, the living creatures Ezekiel saw are translated wheels, but Enoch already saw them and called them living creatures.
They are alive. they are holy. they are also guardians of the throne.
And they have eyes all around their circle.

The living creatures: Genesis (NKJV)