Lucifer was worship leader in heaven?

CMDRExorcist

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That maybe is more in the case of the example of Isaiah 14 than Ezekiel 28 though. It's because the flesh king of Tyrus we well know is not an 'anointed cherub', nor was he ever in the Garden of Eden like the Scripture points to (Ezekiel 28:13-14). Thus it is easy to know God was not really speaking of the flesh king of Tyre there, but in reality giving an allegory about Satan. Another factoid given in the Ezekiel 28 chapter to know God was pointing to Satan, is the fact that no flesh man has been judged and sentenced yet to perish. Yet Ezekiel 28:18 reveals the one He pointed to is already judged and sentenced to perish. So this is a no-brainer to know God is pointing to Satan in Ezekiel 28. Even the name "Tyrus" means 'rock', and Satan represents the little 'rock' of Deuteronomy 32:31.

Is it possible that God was referring to mankind as a species in Ezekiel 28:13-14 and not Satan? The events described seem to mirror humanity's attempt to become like God in Genesis 3:22. It makes me wonder if the language here isn't general in the way that sometimes we speak about people as a whole group, such as when disciplining our children or our foolish acquaintances (e.g. "you people never learn!").

The phrase: You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I had appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones. Ezekiel 28:14 (CSB) could be metaphorical as Adam was appointed by God to be the guardian of the garden. He wasn't a cherub at all, but he was given a similar role to a cherub and often represents the whole of humanity when it comes to our fall from the initial union with God.

Just an idea...
 
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yeshuasavedme

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none of that is true.
It is all in the Bible.
Adam was taken/laqach (=to go get, to fetch, to marry, to take away from one place to another)
and set in the Garden of Eden/Paradise, which is God’s Garden, in Eden, which is a Holy Mountain, and which is in the third heaven.

And placed there to guard the Garden, to watch over it, to “keep” it. Interesting that the Japanese word for Samuri comes from the Hebrew Word to guard, to keep, as in what Adam was to do in the Garden -and it also included “to worship”.
שָׁמַר Look up the full meaning of the word in the Strong’s
H8104 - šāmar - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)
As to where Mount Eden is, the Word is clear that it is God’s Holy Mountain, and in Eden He planted a garden/Paradise, and the Tree of Life is in the midst of it.
So, there are Hebrew words for the fall of Adam that mean cast down....one is נָפַל
To fall, to be cast down, Adam was cast down.
Adam is not son of God since the fall.
Once, in the beginning, Adam was the firstborn son of God of the human flesh kind, and Adam was also in the heavenly assemblies with the sons of God =the holy Watchers, who are sons of God of the spirit kind, in the third heaven.
Psalm 82: 7 in the Hebrew warns the sons of God in the assemblies in heaven that they are in danger and can die (in spirit), like Adam, the one prince, and be cast down.
Psalm 82 :: King James Version (KJV)
It is good to go to the original language for doctrine.
Adam was a son of God, and Malachi 3:15 states that He made them (male and female) one, having a remnant of the (Adam) spirit, because He sought Godly seed =sons of God.
Now He gets the sons of God by adoption into the One Living Spirit of the NewMan name, as Isaiah 49 states, that name is “Israel”, which was given to Jacob as an oracle of God’s plan and purpose.


Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Since the fall, the casting down of Adam, Adam is not the son of God. Adam has lost the glory, does not appear in the assemblies in heaven with the sons of God (Psalm 82), and sold the kingdom God gave him to rule over into sin, Death, and Corruption.

Now, to be a son of God one must be born again into the One Living Spirit of the New Creation human being flesh Name, which is not Adam, but is “Israel”, and He will take His authority and possession of the Kingdom He purchased by His blood, and reign from Mount Zion in the Heavenly realm over earth, when New Jerusalem hovers over Israel below, forever, as the City of the Great King, when earth is renewed, made new, and the NEw Beginning begins.
God formed Adam to “plant the heavens” with sons of God, but now, He will do it with “Israel”, His Firstborn/ Yeshua the Christ/Messiah, come in flesh of New Creation to be our Kinsman/Redeemer, and with His adopted sons.
Jesus/Yeshua, is God the Word, who is come in the same kind of human being flesh that the dead IN SPIRIT son of God, ADAM, was created in.
ROMANS 5:14 states that Adam was made in the image of Him who was to come. The image of God the Word who would come in flesh, in which He created Adam in, bodily.
 
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TedT

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Not sure if I posted this in the the correct section.
I hear this said all the time and I never read it in the bible. I'm also looking for it and see nothing on it

This is all I've seen people post to claim it .
Ezekiel 28:13
, “The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.”

I can't accept that anyone who worshipped GOD in truth, who knew HIM, HIS power and Divinity (Rom 1:20) without question, would every (could never) turn fully against HIM knowingly facing eternal hell. Something is seriously wrong with this idea.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Our first father, in whose fallen, dead to the glory spirit we are born in, certainly fellowshipped with God the Word (in whose image, to come (Genesis 1:26 -28) he was created, Romans 5:14), in Paradise, on a daily basis.
Paradise is where the Tree of Life is in the midst of, and is in the third heaven, as even Paul the apostle states.

But YHWH cast our first father out and down and shut up the way to the Tree of Life, in His mercy, so that our entire race of human beings COULD be ransomed back (whosoever will), for His original plan, and NOT be damned as castaways forever into the Lake of fire.
The promise of redemption was given immediately, for YHWH IS the God of mercy!
 
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Davy

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Is it possible that God was referring to mankind as a species in Ezekiel 28:13-14 and not Satan?

Easily no, that because the "anointed cherub that covereth" refers to an angelic heavenly being. Remember the Cherubims at the end of Genesis 3 setup to guard the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve had sinned. That's what the "covereth" idea in Ezekiel 28 in relation to the 'cherub' means, and guarding angel over God's Throne. That was originally Satan's job, until he coveted that Throne and wanted to be GOD.

So trying to apply Adam to that metaphorically is really a long, long... stretch of the imagination.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Not sure if I posted this in the the correct section.
I hear this said all the time and I never read it in the bible. I'm also looking for it and see nothing on it

This is all I've seen people post to claim it .
Ezekiel 28:13
, “The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.”

Maybe, but if so this is the first I've heard about it.

I wonder who the worship leader in Heaven is now? :cool:
 
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Yekcidmij

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Not sure if I posted this in the the correct section.
I hear this said all the time and I never read it in the bible. I'm also looking for it and see nothing on it

This is all I've seen people post to claim it .
Ezekiel 28:13
, “The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.”

Eze 28 seems to describe a person. Particularly it describes the Prince of Tyre (vs 2) who was a real person. It also looks to describe him using language and imagery relating to Adam and the High Priest. I don't see anything about Lucifer-the-worship-leader in it.
 
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CMDRExorcist

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Easily no, that because the "anointed cherub that covereth" refers to an angelic heavenly being. Remember the Cherubims at the end of Genesis 3 setup to guard the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve had sinned. That's what the "covereth" idea in Ezekiel 28 in relation to the 'cherub' means, and guarding angel over God's Throne. That was originally Satan's job, until he coveted that Throne and wanted to be GOD.

So trying to apply Adam to that metaphorically is really a long, long... stretch of the imagination.

Do you have any sources to back up those ideas? Because that seems like more of a reach than my idea because there's no specific mention of these desires and position of Satan himself. And I wasn't comparing to Adam specifically in my example as I mentioned, but humanity as a whole. Our species has an extensive history of wanting to be God.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Easily no, that because the "anointed cherub that covereth" refers to an angelic heavenly being. Remember the Cherubims at the end of Genesis 3 setup to guard the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve had sinned. That's what the "covereth" idea in Ezekiel 28 in relation to the 'cherub' means, and guarding angel over God's Throne. That was originally Satan's job, until he coveted that Throne and wanted to be GOD.

So trying to apply Adam to that metaphorically is really a long, long... stretch of the imagination.
The first Hebrew words in that verse are simply "anointed cherub set/placed....
A cherub is not a Satan.
Some cherubim have 4 faces, some have 2.
"Adam face, eagle face, lion face, cherub face".
Saran is not, never was, never will be, a cherub.
Neither was Adam.
But Adam was set/placed in Paradise, in the third heaven, and fell, was cast out and down.

NET
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked about amidst fiery stones.

RSV:
With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
 
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Davy

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Do you have any sources to back up those ideas? Because that seems like more of a reach than my idea because there's no specific mention of these desires and position of Satan himself. And I wasn't comparing to Adam specifically in my example as I mentioned, but humanity as a whole. Our species has an extensive history of wanting to be God.

I gave you one, Genesis 3. See Exodus 25 about the cherubims images upon the ark of the covenant which God told Israel to make. Those were representations of God's Throne and the two heavenly cherubim guarding it.
 
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Davy

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The first Hebrew words in that verse are simply "anointed cherub set/placed....
A cherub is not a Satan.
Some cherubim have 4 faces, some have 2.
"Adam face, eagle face, lion face, cherub face".
Saran is not, never was, never will be, a cherub.
Neither was Adam.
But Adam was set/placed in Paradise, in the third heaven, and fell, was cast out and down.

NET
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked about amidst fiery stones.

RSV:
With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

Nah, I don't buy your interpretation. God was definitely using the flesh prince and king of Tyrus as 'types' for Satan coveting God's Throne, wanting to be GOD.

And the name Tyrus means 'rock', representing Satan as the little rock of Deuteronomy 32:31, which is a teaching in itself in Ezek.28, because for those in Christ Jesus "God is our Rock" (upper case). The fact of God using that idea of the rock (Tyrus) points exactly to what Satan's original sin against Him in that old world was about...

Ezek 28:2
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas'; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:"
KJV

Isa 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
KJV
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Nah, I don't buy your interpretation ... satan’s original sin in the old world
I gave you no interpretation.
“The first Hebrew words in that verse are simply "anointed cherub set/placed....
A cherub is not a Satan.
Some cherubim have 4 faces, some have 2.
"Adam face, eagle face, lion face, cherub face".
Saran is not, never was, never will be, a cherub.
Neither was Adam.
But Adam was set/placed in Paradise, in the third heaven, and fell, was cast out and down.

NET
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked about amidst fiery stones.

RSV:
With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked”

Now, as to your own doctrine of the word Lucifer being a proper noun, and the name of a fallen cherub, you err, not knowing the Scripture on that. Lucifer means light bearer, and the only other time it is in Scripture is in reference to the “New creation human being flesh Man”, who is God the Word who is come in second creation human being flesh as our “Everlasting Father” of the human being kind, and our Redeemer/Kinsman (for whosoever will), who came to ransom the kingdom Adam sold into Sin and Death at the fall of him, which fall made us “orphans” in spirit, at that fall, for God is not our Father since the fall.

“Adam son of God” Luke 3: 38, I think it is, was created in the exact bodily image of Him who was to come (Genesis 1:26-28, Romans 5:14), and is come, which coming was to be the Atonement and ransom the seed created to be sons of God (Malachi 3:15), and the kingdom Adam sold, and to build up Zion above with those sons as living stones for the Temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, and thereby “Plant the heavens” -Isaiah 51:16.

And, please read the beginning chapters of Genesis.
There was no “old world” before the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1.
There was nothing but the suspended firmament and the huge globe of elementally pregnant for life waters.

There was no land, no light, nothing but darkness, and no stretched out heavens.
Light day 1, circling the globe of waters, making evening and morning, first Day.

No heavens stretched out until day two, and the waters of creation cut in two and half raised above the stretched out heavens (which are at least stretched out in three stories, or three heavens according to the Scriptures) with the light called out of the darkness stretched out with the stretched out heavens, and half the water left below. No name “heavens”, until day two, which is Hebrew for “two waters”.


No dry which was named earth until day three. The dry was instantly brought out of the elementally pregnant waters of creation on day three.

Continue through all six days. There was nothing created by YHWH of this entire creation before Genesis chapter one.

Nothing.
No globe no waters
No light
No heavens
No dry land
Nothing.

Stretched out heavens on day two, and the light stretched out with them.
The heavens are stretched out in “stories”, and we see at least three, below the waters above the heavens. The waters are still above the heavens, and fountains from them deluged the globe in Noah’s flood, meeting with the fountains of the waters below in a magnetic attraction of the opposites, which are held apart by the “firmament of His powers” which He named “two waters, Sha mayim”, on day 2.

No sun, no moon, until day 4, but there was light circling the globe, and darkness circling the globe making day and night. Therefore stars were stretched out with the heavens on day 2, and the spinning stars take the light and create powerful streams of electromagnetic rivers which stream to the sun, which is called a “menorah” in the Word, and which refracts that light out to the whole heavens, as the Scripture says, and nothing is hidden from it’s heat, says Scripture.

We can go on and on on Genesis 1-3, and show what it really states, and not what tradition, in blindness, has decided to tell us “what to think”.
 
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CMDRExorcist

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I gave you one, Genesis 3. See Exodus 25 about the cherubims images upon the ark of the covenant which God told Israel to make. Those were representations of God's Throne and the two heavenly cherubim guarding it.

Thanks, but I got that part and I'm well aware of what a Cherub is. What I was asking is if you have any evidence that the specific passage refers to Satan himself. I see so much written about it, but there's nothing concrete to say that's who it refers to. It implies that God randomly changes the focus of His words during the statement, which makes no sense whatsoever, imho.
 
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Davy

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I gave you no interpretation.

Sure you did.

You claimed Adam being in Paradise in the 'heavenly', when Genesis 2 revealed God's Garden of Eden was ON EARTH. It even showed God's River flowing out of His Garden to feed 4 other rivers upon the earth, two of which can still be found in the middle east today.

Why should I listen to such silliness interpretation, I don't.
 
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Davy

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Thanks, but I got that part and I'm well aware of what a Cherub is. What I was asking is if you have any evidence that the specific passage refers to Satan himself. I see so much written about it, but there's nothing concrete to say that's who it refers to. It implies that God randomly changes the focus of His words during the statement, which makes no sense whatsoever, imho.

Well yeah! I have evidence that Ezekiel 28 is about Satan. It's called 'context'. Do you not understand what sin it was that Satan did against God in the beginning?
 
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CMDRExorcist

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Well yeah! I have evidence that Ezekiel 28 is about Satan. It's called 'context'. Do you not understand what sin it was that Satan did against God in the beginning?

Sure I do. What's your evidence? That's what I'd like to see because I don't see it specifically referring to Satan. If you have something that proves otherwise, that would be cool.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Sure you did.

You claimed Adam being in Paradise in the 'heavenly', when Genesis 2 revealed God's Garden of Eden was ON EARTH. It even showed God's River flowing out of His Garden to feed 4 other rivers upon the earth, two of which can still be found in the middle east today.

Why should I listen to such silliness interpretation, I don't.
you err.
The River that flowed out of Eden watered the Garden and became the heads of 4 rivers on earth below.
Fact: Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon.
Look it up. It confirms Genesis.


Fact: half the waters of creation were lifted above the stretched out heavens on day 2 of creation week.

Fact: God opened fountains in the waters above the heavens to meet with the opened ones on earth below, for Noah's flood.

Fact: Paradise is in the third heaven.
Fact: the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Look those facts up.
Oh: and all 4 rivers are still on earth below.
And atmospheric rivers are facts.
 
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Davy

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Sure I do. What's your evidence? That's what I'd like to see because I don't see it specifically referring to Satan. If you have something that proves otherwise, that would be cool.

Yeah, you do see Ezekiel 28 referring to Satan, because NO FLESH MAN is a "cherub", because the cherub idea is about a HEAVENLY BEING. And secondly, the man Adam DID NOT try to proclaim himself as GOD like that "cherub" in Ezekiel 28:14 did, and Adam was NOT a "cherub", nor were the flesh prince and king of Tyrus. Furthermore, Adam still... has NOT BEEN JUDGED TO PERISH like that "cherub" in Ezekiel 28:18 has, NO FLESH MAN has even been judged to perish in the future "lake of fire" yet today! ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish (Matthew 25:41). ALL those things are direct pointers to the heavenly cherub Satan who first sinned against God in coveting His Throne and wanting to be GOD.

(By the way folks, the sentence God pronounced upon Satan in Ezekiel 28:18 is still FUTURE. In the KJV Bible it shows his destruction is STILL future, and not past tense like modern corrupt Bible versions have it.

The KJV reading:

Ezek 28:18
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

KJV

That is HOW God is going to destroy Satan in final.)
 
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Davy

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you err.
The River that flowed out of Eden watered the Garden and became the heads of 4 rivers on earth below.

You're dreaming.

God formed Adam IN His Garden of Eden ON EARTH...

Gen 2:6-10
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
KJV
 
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