Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Hmm]

I pray the train doesn’t derail before you die without Christ.

Off course.

 

[Jipsah]

If you were in Christ you'd realize these two statements don't contridict each other

[/QUOTE]

OK, 'plain how that works. God so loved the world that He chucks most of the people He created into hell to be tormented forever, right?

"3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

So God wants everyone to be saved (unless St. Paul or the translators got it wrong), right? And God is sovereign, right? So what's hindering Him from seeing to it that everyone is saved? Is it because peop[le are sinful? I reckon He knows that (you do believe that God is omniscient, right?) But He does want everyone to be saved. yes? (If not, reread 1 Timothy again and expound on what it really means, OK?) Is this the "Poor God, He just can't..." schtick? That God is mostly sovereign, but that there are a variety of things that He just can't do anything about? Is that where you're at? Doesn't it make you question your favorite doctrines a little to contemplate that while Scripture says God wants everyone He reated saved, your doctrine says that He designed the universe in such a way that most of the people He created will be damned to eternal torment, but that There's Just Nothing He Can Do about it? Doesn't it strike you that your doctrine might be just a trifle inconsistent? Heaven forbid that it's you with a cartoon Satan perched on your shoulder feeding you a line of rubbish!

,But since you're insistent on being nude in front of everyone, showing your sin and shame to all the world, and teaching others to do likewise in the name of the scriptures, God is not your master and you will not endure sound doctrine. God will continue to puzzle you and His Word will flee from you until you take Christ seriously.

Doctor, I suggest you might consider the state of your own health before you undertake to open a hospital.

 

[Lost Witness]

I’m harder on myself

1 Corinthians 11:31​

 

[Der Alte]

OK, 'plain how that works. God so loved the world that He chucks most of the people He created into hell to be tormented forever, right?
"3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:3-4
So God wants everyone to be saved (unless St. Paul or the translators got it wrong), right? And God is sovereign, right? So what's hindering Him from seeing to it that everyone is saved? Is it because peop[le are sinful? I reckon He knows that (you do believe that God is omniscient, right?) But He does want everyone to be saved. yes? (If not, reread 1 Timothy again and expound on what it really means, OK?) Is this the "Poor God, He just can't..." schtick? That God is mostly sovereign, but that there are a variety of things that He just can't do anything about? Is that where you're at? Doesn't it make you question your favorite doctrines a little to contemplate that while Scripture says God wants everyone He reated saved, your doctrine says that He designed the universe in such a way that most of the people He created will be damned to eternal torment, but that There's Just Nothing He Can Do about it? Doesn't it strike you that your doctrine might be just a trifle inconsistent? Heaven forbid that it's you with a cartoon Satan perched on your shoulder feeding you a line of rubbish!
Doctor, I suggest you might consider the state of your own health before you undertake to open a hospital.

You misspelled "S'plain." This is a common occurrence in this forum. People who believe in universal reconciliation [UR] read only the vss. which when read in isolation/out-of-context, as they do, really do seem to support this UR mantra "All mankind will be saved the righteous and unrighteous alike even after death." Here are a few vss. which disprove that belief.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

God's will, clearly stated, was that all of Israel and Judah would be to Him "a people, a name, a praise, and a glory: for God but they would not hear and obey. God did not save them anyway but destroyed them, i.e., the ones that disobeyed Him.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus did NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said "not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"" Then Jesus said, "Many," not a few, "will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Again, Jesus does NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus says to the many, not a few, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not some-day by and by.

Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

 

[Hmm]

There’s plenty of bibles online since you probably don’t have one in your home.

You're right. I have two.

 

[Hmm]

The best thing about unbelievers who masquerade as “Christians” is that just like a disgusting cyst, the more you push on them, the more putrid, foul death squirts out

That's why you should leave it to the exorcysts.

 

[Lost Witness]

You misspelled "S'plain." This is a common occurrence in this forum. People who believe in universal reconciliation [UR] read only the vss. which when read in isolation/out-of-context, as they do, really do seem to support this UR mantra "All mankind will be saved the righteous and unrighteous alike even after death." Here are a few vss. which disprove that belief.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

God's will, clearly stated, was that all of Israel and Judah would be to Him "a people, a name, a praise, and a glory: for God but they would not hear and obey. God did not save them anyway but destroyed them, i.e., the ones that disobeyed Him.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus did NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said "not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"" Then Jesus said, "Many," not a few, "will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Again, Jesus does NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus says to the many, not a few, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not some-day by and by.

Romans 1:24​

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​

Romans 1:26​

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

Romans 1:28​

(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

That was a quote gone wrong, nothing i had said. I had tried to add an image to it but it failed and i deleted it

 

[Der Alte]

Did you read the chapter? It’s a glorious one.
There’s plenty of bibles online since you probably don’t have one in your home.

Another poster answered this by saying "I have 2 Bibles." I don't know the exact number. My free Bible program, ESword has about 40 Bibles available, but I have Bibles in my house in more than one language, five of which I read.

 

[Jipsah]

There is a very real, literal hell. There is a very real, literal lake of fire. And to those who mock the notion and lead others astray, they'll know it and regret it at the end of time while they're trying to slap the flames from their very real, literal skin.

[/QUOTE]
For God so loved the world, right?

The fear of hell is the love of God. The love of God is the fear of hell. If I didn't believe in hell, what's my motivation? Making people feel better?

So the Christian Faith is just a matter of keeping God from roasting us forever. Follow the plan and you may not get barbecued, end of. Yeah, I can see how that kind of "love" generates a lot of love in return.

 

[Jipsah]

It’s obvious you won’t listen.

To what? You? Pass.

 

[didactics]

Interesting questions. I don't have a good answer to any of them but here's ,y bad answers:



I would have thought so if He said he would. I think the idea of paradise, the wayside inn, is that it's a beautiful place to be and we will be with Jesus there.



I'm guessing it will be at the time of final judgment. I think paradise is purely a waiting point.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable so you can't read too much into every detail.



Yes, I think the earth, and that means the entire physical universe, will be transformed. Heaven comes down to join earth. It's not an ethereal place up in the sky despite what Rapturists (if that's what they're called) may think!



I don't know. Perhaps we don't all go to paradise when we die. Maybe some stay "under the earth". But eventually, everyone will freely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

In a way, it sounds like you are admitting that [those] “under the earth” do acknowledge the lordship of Christ unwillingly at least for a time. I hate to beat a dead horse, but if hell is a temporary place of punishment — or for that matter you say at the final judgment, it may be a temporary punishment for believers as well (albeit a lighter sentence) — how will they pay homage to the lordship of Christ willingly? This question really goes to @FineLinen as well. I imagine you try to reconcile that by assuming it means they do so once they are released, even though they know by whom they are being punished . . . which leads me to another question: Do they “under the earth” pay their sin debt themselves, enduring punishment to earn merit for their salvation?





@Der Alte earlier stated that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable, and until recently I was not aware there was disagreement over that. I’m actually convinced it is a parable but some say it is a literal story. Here’s what Got Questions had to say, “The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic.”

Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org

I believe the story gives sufficient information regarding hell as taught by Jesus, that once there, it is impossible to leave.





By the way, I don’t necessarily think fear is bad if it gets you thinking about things you would otherwise put off. Fear is a real emotion and as long as you are not frozen in fear, you are capable of making the right choices. If all one ever does is fear hell, that is not a good motivation at all. If all one wants is a get out of hell free card, but cares nothing about mortifying their sins, then God probably does not know them relationally. Sometimes fear may be a hinderance, but we cannot help what we feel all the time. For the Christian is to be principle driven not feeling driven. If fear seems to be present, the emotion should not drive the decisions one makes.

 

[Der Alte]

In a way, it sounds like you are admitting that [those] “under the earth” do acknowledge the lordship of Christ unwillingly at least for a time. I hate to beat a dead horse, but if hell is a temporary place of punishment — or for that matter you say at the final judgment, it may be a temporary punishment for believers as well (albeit a lighter sentence) — how will they pay homage to the lordship of Christ willingly? This question really goes to @FineLinen as well. I imagine you try to reconcile that by assuming it means they do so once they are released, even though they know by whom they are being punished . . . which leads me to another question: Do they “under the earth” pay their sin debt themselves, enduring punishment to earn merit for their salvation?
@Der Alte earlier stated that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable, and until recently I was not aware there was disagreement over that. I’m actually convinced it is a parable but some say it is a literal story. Here’s what Got Questions had to say, “The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic.”
Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org
I believe the story gives sufficient information regarding hell as taught by Jesus, that once there, it is impossible to leave.
By the way, I don’t necessarily think fear is bad if it gets you thinking about things you would otherwise put off. Fear is a real emotion and as long as you are not frozen in fear, you are capable of making the right choices. If all one ever does is fear hell, that is not a good motivation at all. If all one wants is a get out of hell free card, but cares nothing about mortifying their sins, then God probably does not know them relationally. Sometimes fear may be a hinderance, but we cannot help what we feel all the time. For the Christian is to be principle driven not feeling driven. If fear seems to be present, the emotion should not drive the decisions one makes.

PMFBI But I would like to add a little clarification on the Lazarus/Rich man account.
The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "parabole" which means throw/lay beside. Something unknown/not understood is described by comparing it to something known/understood.
All unquestioned "parables" have this comparison. e.g., "the kingdom of heaven in like unto..."
In the 19th century E.V. Bullinger wrote a book titled "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible. He found 217 different figures of speech. The Lazarus/rich man account may be one of the other 216 but it is not a parable. Bullinger's book can be read online at this link.

Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Some errata ([2] p.) inserted between p. [iv] and [v]

archive.org

 

[FineLinen]

Questions =

1. Why clean virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise)?

2. Why two clean animals (sheep & goats) ?

3. Why not sheep & pigs (one clean one unclean)?

The fact is nothing in the Master's words are regarding the wicked. The entire context is directed to pure virgins who are not prepared for the Bridegroom with oil in their lamps. The two animals presented are both clean animals, not one clean & the other unclean. These are servants of of the Master who are coming up short & ending for aionios correction!

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

1. I was hungry & you gave me no meat.

2. I was thirsty & you gave me no drink.

3. I was a stranger & you took me not in.

4. I was naked & you clothed me not.

5. I was sick & you did not visit me.

6. I was in prison & you did not minister to me.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm on a train at the moment so I think I probably would realise it if I was naked, or have some suspicion at least.

Imagine if they had trains back in Genesis chapter two.

Adam and his wife were both naked on the train, and they felt no shame. (See Genesis 2:25)
Summertime, obviously. That's why leaves descend in the Fall season. Need some covering FOR WARMTH.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would have thought so if He said he would. I think the idea of paradise, the wayside inn, is that it's a beautiful place to be and we will be with Jesus there.

This is an interesting passage in that regard. In fact there are 29 references to the realm of the dead in the NIV. (3 in this passage)

Ezekiel 31:15-18 NIV
“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day it was brought down to the realm of the dead I covered the deep springs with mourning for it; I held back its streams, and its abundant waters were restrained. Because of it I clothed Lebanon with gloom, and all the trees of the field withered away. 16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the realm of the dead to be with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, the well-watered trees, were consoled in the earth below. 17 They too, like the great cedar, had gone down to the realm of the dead, to those killed by the sword, along with the armed men who lived in its shade among the nations.
18 “‘Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.
“‘This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't know. Perhaps we don't all go to paradise when we die. Maybe some stay "under the earth". But eventually, everyone will freely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

I would say that means EVERYWHERE that human souls abide. Earth, heaven and in the realm of the dead.

didactics said:
(4.) What does it mean when it says "in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Php 2:10)?

 

[Der Alte]

The fact is nothing in the Master's words are regarding the wicked. The entire context is directed to pure virgins who are not prepared for the Bridegroom with oil in their lamps. The two animals presented are both clean animals, not one clean & the other unclean. These are servants of of the Master who are coming up short & ending for aionios correction!
The foundation for everlasting punishment =
1. I was hungry & you gave me no meat.
2. I was thirsty & you gave me no drink.
3. I was a stranger & you took me not in.
4. I was naked & you clothed me not.
5. I was sick & you did not visit me.
6. I was in prison & you did not minister to me.

Which is it? "Aionios correction" or "everlasting punishment?" Some UR folks argue that "aionios" means "age" or "age during" but "aionios" is an adjective "age" is a noun.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[didactics]

In thinking about 1 John 4:18 now that we have established it means punishment -- if "perfect love casts out fear" and "fear is connected with punishment" -- how do UR proponents square that? - the idea that our punishment leads to reconciliation?

They seem to miss what the "perfect love" means. In verse ten we are given insight.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the [a]propitiation for our sins.
Our being punished temporarily could never sufficiently take care of the sin problem once and forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

In thinking about 1 John 4:18 now that we have established it means punishment -- if "perfect love casts out fear" and "fear is connected with punishment" -- how do UR proponents square that? - the idea that our punishment leads to reconciliation?

They seem to miss what the "perfect love" means. In verse ten we are given insight.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the [a]propitiation for our sins.
Our being punished temporarily could never sufficiently take care of the sin problem once and forever.

Hold the bus...
How did we determine that kolasis means "punishment"?
And even if it did, it would be corrective, not solely punitive, with no goal to achieve, rather than pointless torture that never ends. Sadism, basically. Is that what God is being accused of here? Sadistic and pointless torture?

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2851: κόλασις

κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.) [SYNONYMS: κόλασις, τιμωρία: the noted definition of Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416. But, as in other cases, usage (especially the later) does not always recognize the distinction; see e. g. Philo de legat. ad Gaium § 1 at the end; fragment ex Eusebius prepos. evang. 8, 13 (Mang. 2:641); de vita Moys. 1:16 at the end; Plato de sera num. vind. §§ 9, 11, etc. Plutarch (ibid. § 25 under the end) uses κολάζομαι of those undergoing the penalties of the other world (cf. Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 8; Clement of Rome, 2 Cor. 6, 7 [ET]; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 43; 2, 8; Test xii. Patr., test. Reub. 5; test. Levi 4, etc.; Martyr. Polycarp, 2, 3 [ET]; 11, 2 [ET]; Ignatius ad Rom. 5, 3 [ET]; Martyr Ignatius vat. 5 etc.). See Trench, Synonyms, § vii.; McClellan, New Testament, vol. i., margin references on Matt. as above; Bartlett, Life and Death Eternal. Note G.; C. F. Hudson, Debt and Grace, p. 188ff; Schmidt, chapter 167, 2f.]

 

[Saint Steven]

In thinking about 1 John 4:18 now that we have established it means punishment -- if "perfect love casts out fear" and "fear is connected with punishment" -- how do UR proponents square that? - the idea that our punishment leads to reconciliation?

They seem to miss what the "perfect love" means. In verse ten we are given insight.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the [a]propitiation for our sins.
Our being punished temporarily could never sufficiently take care of the sin problem once and forever.

Now we can address this question with the understanding that Kolasis means correction.

Correction obviously leads to reconciliation.
The same way it does in earthly life. God corrects us, does he not? (disciplines those he loves)
And with the goal of reconciliation, right?

The other view has it backwards. As if God punishes, with no reasonable end goal, those he supposedly "hates"?
The ones he LOVED ENOUGH to send his only-begotten to pay their death penalty. Hello?