Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[FineLinen]

Whether it is "regarding the wicked" is rather irrelevant, because it is the parallelism between aionios zoe and aionios kolasis that makes the notion that aionios kolasis is meant to be temporary/corrective extremely unlikely.

Aionios is not a time related word. Neither aionios kolasis nor aionios life!

Both aionios zoe and aionios kolasis are in the sphere of quality & calibre.

This IS aionios life, that we may know You...

 

[Fervent]

Aionios is not a time related word. Neither aionios kolasis nor aionios life!

Both aionios zoe and aionios kolasis are in the sphere of quality & calibre.

This is aionios life, that we may know You...

Another red herring, as what you have said is little more than jibberish. Especially because eternal is equally about "quality and calibre" rather than time, so your nonsense in no way diminishes translating it as "eternal punishment," which is the most natural and direct translation.

 

[Der Alte]

For which portion?

Didn't realize it was multiple sources.

 

[Fervent]

Didn't realize it was multiple sources.

The bit about the lexical root comes from the TDNT(Little-Kittel), the rest of it is my own conclusions from a cursory examination of how kolasis was used by the LXX, Josephus, and Philo.

 

[didactics]

This is hard work tbh.

I have five distinguished professors on standby at this very moment poised and ready to tell you just that if you PM me a meeting link.



Another even more major part of textual scholarship is answering the question that is asked, not the question you would like to have been asked, otherwise you lose valuable marks and credibility. I asked you to cite some sources and all I get is this. No sources in sight. 0/10 I'm afraid.



Maths is a well-defined subject and so it can determine what does and what does not fall under its scope. This is not true for theology or textual scholarship. If you think that my question to you asking for credible sources that support your definition of the Koine Greek word "kolasis" is not a valid textual scholarship question then you do not understand the nature of the subject.

A friendly suggestion. If you don't have an answer to a question, just say so! No one expects anyone to know everything.

Well, in that case I have a particular question for you. What kind of correction are we talking about here? If your understanding of kolasis involves punishment, then I don’t understand what all the fuss is about. You admitted that those in Hades could not cross over to the pleasant abode, or neither those in Paradise may be able to come over there. This kind of correction certainly seems like punishment.



Now, I get why you would be uncomfortable with the word punishment because “fear has to do with punishment” and a certain kind of suffering, while discipline or correction is done out of love and for the purpose of growing in faith as a disciple of Christ. However, would it not be the kind of punishment that involves fear to bar those in Hades from crossing over to Paradise, or having none of those on the other side able to come over for the purpose of ministering to those in anguish? Besides all this, if anyone is given a heart to be a disciple of Christ, he should immediately cross over. Otherwise, he will not learn from the ways of the Master, for the point of having separation is to say that God does not know them relationally. This can only lead me to conclude that those in hell will finally acknowledge the lordship of Christ unwillingly. @Der Alte as he put it earlier, they are as defeated foes and he pointed out a few verses about how the enemies of God will be made a footstool for his feet.



At this point one may counter “what about Deuteronomy 25:3? Why can’t hell be seen as having the forty stripes?” (Corporal punishment) And to that I would say “they were Israelites and still considered citizens. Hell on the other hand is a place where God does not know them relationally.” If Jesus meant for them to escape hell at some indefinite time, he wouldn’t have concluded in the parable of the ten virgins as a bridegroom that didn’t know the foolish ones.

 

[Der Alte]

Aionios is not a time related word. Neither aionios kolasis nor aionios life!
Both aionios zoe and aionios kolasis are in the sphere of quality & calibre.
This IS aionios life, that we may know You...

What would really be nice here is some kind of credible, verifiable, historical, lexical or grammatical evidence in support of your claims. One example does not a rule make.
Three verses spoken by Jesus which clearly defines/describes "aionios" as eternal/everlasting.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never [εἰς τον αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” cannot mean “age(s) because "aionios" is an adjective, age is a noun,” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! By definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[Hmm]

Now, I get why you would be uncomfortable with the word punishment because “fear has to do with punishment” and a certain kind of suffering, while discipline or correction is done out of love and for the purpose of growing in faith as a disciple of Christ.

I'm not uncomfortable at all with the word "punishment"! Why do you say that?

I am uncomfortable with the word "punishment" when it's aligned with the name Jesus though. Aren't you? Or are you "comfortable" with the association? Do say.

However, would it not be the kind of punishment that involves fear to bar those in Hades from crossing over to Paradise, or having none of those on the other side able to come over for the purpose of ministering to those in anguish?

Fear has nothing to do with it. Does a teacher implement a detention out of fear? Of course not (to answer myself). It's governed by enforcing the school policies that are in place. That doesn't mean those policies are based on fear - that's a very school playground way of thinking.

Besides all this, if anyone is given a heart to be a disciple of Christ, he should immediately cross over.

Why? Did Romeo fall in love with Juliet the first time he saw her. Okay, yes, he did but that doesn't mean it's always the case for people who fall in love.

@Der Alte as he put it earlier

Say no more...

 

[Der Alte]

The bit about the lexical root comes from the TDNT(Little-Kittel), the rest of it is my own conclusions from a cursory examination of how kolasis was used by the LXX, Josephus, and Philo.

I have the hard back Little-Kittel. Guess that will be my next digital purchase.

 

[Der Alte]

The claim that it means "to lop" is essentially a root fallacy, since kolazo originally meant something along the lines of "to cut short," "to lop," or "to prune." While there are only two uses in the NT, it is fairly common in the Septuagint and in other religious literature where it is used in a variety of different ways. The central question is whether its usage can be limited to punishment for the benefit of the one being punished, as Aristotle and other secular authors distinguish it from timoria. Just a couple of examples demonstrates this is not the case, most notably being its usage in the Maccabees where it is invariably used for a death sentence and of particular note is 2Mac 4:38 where it is paired with apodidomai making it unambiguously about retribution and not correction. Within the religious literature the distinction that kolasis is punishment for the betterment of the punished and timoria is punishment to satisfy vengeance doesn't appear to be supportable. In fact, if there is a distinction kolasis appears to be reserved for more severe punishments especially divine punishment.

Here is the definition of Kolazo from BDAG. Blue highlights indicate numerous sources scholars consulted in determining the correct definition.

κολάζω fut. κολάσω; 1 aor. mid. ἐκολασάμην. Pass.: 1 fut. κολασθήσομαι; aor. 3 pl. ἐκολάσθησαν LXX; pf. inf. κεκολάσθαι (s. three next entries) penalize, punish (so Trag., Pla.+; also OGI 90, 28; PSI 446, 14; PRyl 62, 9) act. τινά someone lit., of the punishment of slaves Hs 9, 28, 8. In imagery do someone an injury, of polytheists who penalize their cult images by locking them up Dg 2:8. In an apocalyptic place of punishment are οἱ κολάζοντες ἄγγελοι ApcPt 6:21b (Chariton 4, 2, 7 οἱ κολάζοντες=‘constables, police’; Sallust. 19 p. 34, 15 δαίμονες κολάζοντες).—Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16) Ac 4:21.—Mostly pass. of the punishment of Christians 1 Pt 2:20 v.l.; Dg 5:16; 6:9; 7:8; 10:7; MPol 2:4 Of the Last Judgment 2 Pt 2:9. βασάνοις 2 Cl 17:7 (on the dat., cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 90 §377 κ. θανάτῳ; Polyaenus 3, 9, 56; Lucian, Dial. Mort. 17, 2; Jos., Ant. 18, 314 κ. πληγαῖς.—Just., A II, 1, 2 ἐν πυρί). δισσῶς be punished doubly Hs 9, 18, 2. Of hell οἱ κολαζόμενοι ἐκεῖ ApcPt 6:21a. (Of punishment by God: TestAsh 6:2; ApcEsdr 1:11; Just., D. 88, 5; Diod S 16, 32, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 3; Dio Chrys. 59 [76], 5; Aesop, Fab. 77 P.=127 H. ὑπὸ θεῶν κολάζονται; oft. in ins in FSteinleitner, D. Beicht 1913, p. 10ff; LRobert, Nouvelles Inscriptions de Sardes ’64, 24ff; LXX; Jos., Bell. 2, 163; cp. Theoph. Ant., 2, 36 [p. 196, 24]). Aristotle’s limitation of the term κόλασις to disciplinary action Rhet. 1, 10, 17 is not reflected in gener. usage.—DELG s.v. κόλος 3. M-M. TW.​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 554–555.​

 

[Fervent]

Here is the definition of Kolazo from BDAG. Blue highlights indicate numerous sources scholars consulted in determining the correct definition.

κολάζω fut. κολάσω; 1 aor. mid. ἐκολασάμην. Pass.: 1 fut. κολασθήσομαι; aor. 3 pl. ἐκολάσθησαν LXX; pf. inf. κεκολάσθαι (s. three next entries) penalize, punish (so Trag., Pla.+; also OGI 90, 28; PSI 446, 14; PRyl 62, 9) act. τινά someone lit., of the punishment of slaves Hs 9, 28, 8. In imagery do someone an injury, of polytheists who penalize their cult images by locking them up Dg 2:8. In an apocalyptic place of punishment are οἱ κολάζοντες ἄγγελοι ApcPt 6:21b (Chariton 4, 2, 7 οἱ κολάζοντες=‘constables, police’; Sallust. 19 p. 34, 15 δαίμονες κολάζοντες).—Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16) Ac 4:21.—Mostly pass. of the punishment of Christians 1 Pt 2:20 v.l.; Dg 5:16; 6:9; 7:8; 10:7; MPol 2:4 Of the Last Judgment 2 Pt 2:9. βασάνοις 2 Cl 17:7 (on the dat., cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 90 §377 κ. θανάτῳ; Polyaenus 3, 9, 56; Lucian, Dial. Mort. 17, 2; Jos., Ant. 18, 314 κ. πληγαῖς.—Just., A II, 1, 2 ἐν πυρί). δισσῶς be punished doubly Hs 9, 18, 2. Of hell οἱ κολαζόμενοι ἐκεῖ ApcPt 6:21a. (Of punishment by God: TestAsh 6:2; ApcEsdr 1:11; Just., D. 88, 5; Diod S 16, 32, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 3; Dio Chrys. 59 [76], 5; Aesop, Fab. 77 P.=127 H. ὑπὸ θεῶν κολάζονται; oft. in ins in FSteinleitner, D. Beicht 1913, p. 10ff; LRobert, Nouvelles Inscriptions de Sardes ’64, 24ff; LXX; Jos., Bell. 2, 163; cp. Theoph. Ant., 2, 36 [p. 196, 24]). Aristotle’s limitation of the term κόλασις to disciplinary action Rhet. 1, 10, 17 is not reflected in gener. usage.—DELG s.v. κόλος 3. M-M. TW.​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 554–555.​

Thanks. Did some quick digging to see what was going on, seems TDNT is relying on outdated information that linked kolazo with kolos and is only supported by a single use by Theophrastus. Good example of why lexicons are only a supplement to word studies since they tend to rely on older work.

 

[didactics]

I'm not uncomfortable at all with the word "punishment"! Why do you say that?

I am uncomfortable with the word "punishment" when it's aligned with the name Jesus though. Aren't you? Or are you "comfortable" with the association? Do say.



Fear has nothing to do with it. Does a teacher implement a detention out of fear? Of course not (to answer myself). It's governed by enforcing the school policies that are in place. That doesn't mean those policies are based on fear - that's a very school playground way of thinking.


Why? Did Romeo fall in love with Juliet the first time he saw her. Okay, yes, he did but that doesn't mean it's always the case for people who fall in love.


Say no more...

Am I comfortable with a God who punishes? Yes, for Romans 13 shows us that God uses governing authorities as his servants to protect those who do good and punish those who do evil, so long the government does not turn the divine design on its head. A leader in government is God’s minister to you for good.


Romans 13:4b
For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.


I suppose you mean you are not comfortable with God’s eternal punishment. Am I comfortable with God eternally punishing people? If God can punish evildoers justly which he does, then he knows how to justly punish for eternity. What is the alternative, that hell is a place of correction? Compare for a moment how rulers are a terror to the wrongdoer. Would not this place of hell which you call “correction” be a terror? How then can anyone learn in that environment? It is a place of defeat, is how I see it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Another red herring, as what you have said is little more than jibberish. Especially because eternal is equally about "quality and calibre" rather than time, so your nonsense in no way diminishes translating it as "eternal punishment," which is the most natural and direct translation.

What do you think about this? I found it interesting. Don't be put off by the guy's haircut and the intro.

 

[Fervent]

What do you think about this? I found it interesting. Don't be put off by the guy's haircut and the intro.

While I have some issues with the way he highlighted the Greek words because of misconceptions using it that way reinforces, overall his message seems sound.

 

[Ceallaigh]

While I have some issues with the way he highlighted the Greek words because of misconceptions using it that way reinforces, overall his message seems sound.

I like the perspective of it, because I think there's too much emphasis on heaven for a lot of Christians. Rather than what's going on here and now, and what their purpose is here and now, and what God has to offer them, and what they have to offer to God, here and now. Yes Jesus talked about storing up treasure in heaven, but he also talked about present life a lot as well. I think some things people associate being about heaven, are actually about what's experienced here on Earth. That certainly was the theme of the Old Testament. Blessings and hardships that came about from obedience and disobedience, where exhibited by what was experienced in this life, rather than there being an emphasis on the afterlife.

 

[Fervent]

I like the perspective of it, because I think there's too much emphasis on heaven for a lot of Christians. Rather than what's going on here and now, and what their purpose is here and now, and what God has to offer them, and what they have to offer to God, here and now. Yes Jesus talked about storing up treasure in heaven, but he also talked about present life a lot as well. I think some things people associate being about heaven, are actually about what's experienced here on Earth. That certainly was the theme of the Old Testament. Blessings and hardships that came about from obedience and disobedience, where exhibited by what was experienced in this life, rather than there being an emphasis on the afterlife.

I agree, as I said my only issue with it is the way he focused on the Greek words because that sort of focus reinforces misconceptions about how to handle language.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I agree, as I said my only issue with it is the way he focused on the Greek words because that sort of focus reinforces misconceptions about how to handle language.

I doubt he's the one who came up with it. And perhaps there's someone out there who deals with the mechanics of written language better.

 

[Der Alte]

My feelings are hurt. I quoted Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which OBTW is one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available and it is basically ignored but find some anonymous guy online he is immediately accepted.

 

[FineLinen]

Am I comfortable with a God who punishes? Yes, for Romans 13 shows us that God uses governing authorities as his servants to protect those who do good and punish those who do evil, so long the government does not turn the divine design on its head. A leader in government is God’s minister to you for good.

Punishment, by the Father Yah is not an end in itself, rather it leads to change of aionios caliber.

Our God does not punish ad nauseam! ! !

I am not comfortable with mindless punishment.

 

[Der Alte]

Punishment, by the Father Yah is not an end in itself, rather it leads to change of aionios caliber.
Our God does not punish ad nauseam! ! !
I am not comfortable with mindless punishment.

Punishment, by the Father Yah is not an end in itself, rather it leads to change of aionios caliber.
Our God does not punish ad nauseam! ! !
I am not comfortable with mindless punishment.

Unfortunately, in Matt 25:46 Jesus said "these [on His left] shall go away into eternal punishment."
There is a false narrative floating around the internet that "'aionios' never means eternal, it only means 'age during' and 'kolasis' does not mean 'punishment" it really means 'prune or correction.'". The problem with this view is there is no, zero, none; credible, verifiable, grammatical or lexical evidence to support it.

 

[didactics]

Punishment, by the Father Yah is not an end in itself, rather it leads to change of aionios caliber.

Our God does not punish ad nauseam! ! !

I am not comfortable with mindless punishment.

That is an interesting observation, that both the sheep and goats are clean animals. However, I don’t come to the same conclusion as you. Take for example John 13. When Jesus washed his disciples feet he told Peter in verse 10, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” Later, when Jesus prayed for his disciples, he said in chapter 17 of verse 12, “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”


αἰώνιος
[aiōnios] adj.
αἰώνιος, -ον (as usual in Attic), also -α, -ον. class; (< αἰών), in LXX
age-long, eternal,

1. of that which is without either beginning or end: class;
2. of that which is without beginning: class;
3. of that which is without end(MM, VGT, see word): σκηναί, class οἰκία, class; διαθήκη, class; εὐαγγέλιον, class; παράκλησις, class; λύτρωσις, class; κληρονομία, ib. 15; κόλασις, class; κρίμα, class; κρίσις, class; ὄλεθρον, class; πῦρ, class; freq. with ζωή,

Abbott-Smith. A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament. Sourced from Tyndale House, Cambridge.