Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Der Alte]

Now we can address this question with the understanding that Kolasis means correction.
Correction obviously leads to reconciliation.
The same way it does in earthly life. God corrects us, does he not? (disciplines those he loves)
And with the goal of reconciliation, right?
The other view has it backwards. As if God punishes for no reasonable end those he supposedly "hates"?
The ones he LOVED ENOUGH to send his only-begotten to pay their death penalty. Hello?

No! Now we can address this question with the understanding that Kolasis means punishment. Fifty+ sources the scholars consulted to determine the correct definition highlighted in blue. Please note in 1 John 4:18 those who have kolasis are NOT corrected, not made perfect!

κόλασις, εως, ἡ​

(s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)​

① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.​

② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). of Hell τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]​

Arndt, w., Danker, F. w., Bauer, w., & Gingrich, F. w. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

ETA: Some readers may be confused by the abbreviations in the source listings. e.g. "Philo, In Flacc. 96," in this last paragraph. This is common in works like this. If authors wrote full bibliographic entries for every quoted source this one entry would be 3-4 times as long as it is. So abbreviations are used and the full bibliographic entry is in the bibliography at the back of the book.

​

​

​

---

[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[Der Alte]

Let us take a look at Strongs

STRONGS NT 2851: κόλασις
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.) [SYNONYMS: κόλασις, τιμωρία: the noted definition of Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416. But, as in other cases, usage (especially the later) does not always recognize the distinction; see e. g. Philo de legat. ad Gaium § 1 at the end; fragment ex Eusebius prepos. evang. 8, 13 (Mang. 2:641); de vita Moys. 1:16 at the end; Plato de sera num. vind. §§ 9, 11, etc. Plutarch (ibid. § 25 under the end) uses κολάζομαι of those undergoing the penalties of the other world (cf. Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 8; Clement of Rome, 2 Cor. 6, 7 [ET]; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 43; 2, 8; Test xii. Patr., test. Reub. 5; test. Levi 4, etc.; Martyr. Polycarp, 2, 3 [ET]; 11, 2 [ET]; Ignatius ad Rom. 5, 3 [ET]; Martyr Ignatius vat. 5 etc.). See Trench, Synonyms, § vii.; McClellan, New Testament, vol. i., margin references on Matt. as above; Bartlett, Life and Death Eternal. Note G.; C. F. Hudson, Debt and Grace, p. 188ff; Schmidt, chapter 167, 2f.]

 

[Fervent]

Hold the bus...
How did we determine that kolasis means "punishment"?
And even if it did, it would be corrective, not solely punitive, with no goal to achieve, rather than pointless torture that never ends. Sadism, basically. Is that what God is being accused of here? Sadistic and pointless torture?

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2851: κόλασις

κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.) [SYNONYMS: κόλασις, τιμωρία: the noted definition of Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416. But, as in other cases, usage (especially the later) does not always recognize the distinction; see e. g. Philo de legat. ad Gaium § 1 at the end; fragment ex Eusebius prepos. evang. 8, 13 (Mang. 2:641); de vita Moys. 1:16 at the end; Plato de sera num. vind. §§ 9, 11, etc. Plutarch (ibid. § 25 under the end) uses κολάζομαι of those undergoing the penalties of the other world (cf. Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 8; Clement of Rome, 2 Cor. 6, 7 [ET]; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 43; 2, 8; Test xii. Patr., test. Reub. 5; test. Levi 4, etc.; Martyr. Polycarp, 2, 3 [ET]; 11, 2 [ET]; Ignatius ad Rom. 5, 3 [ET]; Martyr Ignatius vat. 5 etc.). See Trench, Synonyms, § vii.; McClellan, New Testament, vol. i., margin references on Matt. as above; Bartlett, Life and Death Eternal. Note G.; C. F. Hudson, Debt and Grace, p. 188ff; Schmidt, chapter 167, 2f.]

There's a major abuse going on with your use of Thayer's in that it primarily draws on the secular usage of the term, relying heavily on Aristotle. That usage is distinct from the use of the Hellenists that popularized it for divine punishment, as the focus of its usage in the Septuagint draws on its origin as "to lop" or "to prune," with the corrective aspect applying to the corporate Israel not to the individual who underwent the punishment. So we cannot infer that kolasis was used to imply that it was corrective, instead being used because it was the common term for divine punishment in religious writings.

 

[didactics]

Now we can address this question with the understanding that Kolasis means correction.

Correction obviously leads to reconciliation.
The same way it does in earthly life. God corrects us, does he not? (disciplines those he loves)
And with the goal of reconciliation, right?

The other view has it backwards. As if God punishes for no reasonable end those he supposedly "hates"?
The ones he LOVED ENOUGH to send his only-begotten to pay their death penalty. Hello?

Think of it like this, is it ever wrong for someone to be executed, or are you against capital punishment? I pointed out a quote from Ray Comfort earlier because he used an analogy for the saved by saying he (God) can commute your death sentence. Ten out of ten people will die, that is a fact. When Ray Comfort said that God can commute your death sentence, he was saying death doesn't have to be a sting, ending up in hell. Christ paid the fine so you can be free from the penalty of death.

 

[Saint Steven]

When Ray Comfort said that God can commute your death sentence, he was saying death doesn't have to be a sting, ending up in hell. Christ paid the fine so you can be free from the penalty of death.

Good example of cognitive dissonance.
Since "Christ paid the fine so you can be free from the penalty of death.", Why would anyone end up in what you call "hell"?
Wasn't the price PAID for EVERYONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???????????????????????

 

[Der Alte]

Good example of cognitive dissonance.
Since "Christ paid the fine so you can be free from the penalty of death.", Why would anyone end up in what you call "hell"?
Wasn't the price PAID for EVERYONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???????????????????????

Good example of cognitive dissonance.
Since "Christ paid the fine so you can be free from the penalty of death.", Why would anyone end up in what you call "hell"?
Wasn't the price PAID for everyone?

I think you are right lot of cognitive dissonance going on here. Yes, Christ paid the fine for everyone, but Christ also said, "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Many, not a few, will say to me in that day, Judgement Day, have we not done many wonderful works in your name? But Jesus will say to those many, depart from me you that work iniquity, I never knew you. I think that is in Matt 7:21-23. When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by.

 

[Hmm]

I never knew you. I think that is in Matt 7:21-23. When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by.

You are mixing your tenses up, I'm afraid. "I never knew you" (past tense) is not equivalent to "I will never know you" (future tense ).

 

[Der Alte]

You are mixing your tenses up, I'm afraid. "I never knew you" (past tense) is not equivalent to "I will never know you" (future tense ).

When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by. If not for people like me many UR-ites would never read Matt 7:21-23, it doesn't fit their narrative. Remember that passage is about what happens "in that day" i.e., Judgment Day. And we all get only one shot at it.
Last book, last chapter vs.11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" 10 more vss. the end. No more death, no more salvation, only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still." Fade to black.

 

[Hmm]

with the corrective aspect applying to the corporate Israel not to the individual who underwent the punishment. So we cannot infer that kolasis was used to imply that it was corrective

Is there anywhere in Biblical Greek literature that indicates that "kolasis" refers to everlasting punitive punishment on the individual level?

 

[Hmm]

In a way, it sounds like you are admitting that [those] “under the earth” do acknowledge the lordship of Christ unwillingly at least for a time. I hate to beat a dead horse, but if hell is a temporary place of punishment — or for that matter you say at the final judgment, it may be a temporary punishment for believers as well (albeit a lighter sentence) — how will they pay homage to the lordship of Christ willingly?

Anyone undergoing correction is unlikely to be happy about it at the time but the purpose of the correction is that we will see God for what He truly is, as well as ourselves for what we are/were and how far we fell from the mark without Him. So when it's achieved, we will freely and gladly repent and pay homage to the lordship of Christ. I'm not sure where the error is in this line of reasoning. You seem to be hung up by the word "punishment" whereas the idea is more of correction/pruning/purification.

 

[Der Alte]

Is there anywhere in Biblical Greek literature that indicates that "kolasis" refers to everlasting punitive punishment on the individual level?

AFAIK the Bible is pretty much the only "Biblical Greek literature" around. I could look it up in the ECF but I did that yesterday with another word but the guy I was discussing with blew it off cuz it didn't fit their narrative. Funny how that works.
Kolasis only occurs twice in the NT Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18 and it certainly does not mean correction in 1 John. But here is a little tid bit the word "correction" occurs only one time in the NT.

2 Timothy 3:16
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction [ἐπανόρθωσιν], for instruction in righteousness:​

Epanorthosin and it looks nothing like "kolasis." Further evidence that kolasis does not mean correction or prune.

 

[Der Alte]

Anyone undergoing correction is unlikely to be happy about it at the time but the purpose of the correction is that we will see God for what He truly is, as well as ourselves for what we are/were and how far we fell from the mark without Him. So when it's achieved, we will freely and gladly repent and pay homage to the lordship of Christ. I'm not sure where the error is in this line of reasoning.

Fine, lovely sounding sentiments. Why doesn't it happen in this life after people are punished for their crimes? Why don't they come out of prison full of warm fuzzies for the people that put them there? Why is there a more than 60% recidivism rate. People who have been in prison returning to prison.

 

[Hmm]

"Biblical Greek literature"

Biblical Greek literature refers to any literature written in Biblical (Koine) Greek in biblical times. So do you know of any examples that infer that "kolasis" means eternal punishment of individuals?

 

[Hmm]

Fine, lovely sounding sentiments. Why doesn't it happen in this life after people are punished for their crimes? Why don't they come out of prison full of warm fuzzies for the people that put them there? Why is there a more than 60% recidivism rate. People who have been in prison returning to prison.

The fact that we have a failing penal system does not mean that God is unable to refine us, any more than our broken banking system means that Jesus can't save. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Der Alte]

@Hmm Here is the first 3 pages of a 6 page review of the ECF I did a while back.
“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD) Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John
And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
......This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
......Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:
.....Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
.....The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:
.....These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)

If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

 

[Der Alte]

Biblical Greek literature refers to any literature written in Biblical (Koine) Greek in biblical times. So do you know of any examples that infer that "kolasis" means eternal punishment of individuals?

See my previous post #595. Since you are inquiring about it would that not be a good research project for yourself? Google.

 

[Hmm]

@Hmm Here is the first 3 pages of a 6 page review of the ECF I did a while back.
“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD) Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John
And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

Do any of these extracts use the word "kolasis" though? This is the point I was addressing.

There was a wide diversity of views in the early church, as you know, and I could just as easily post a bunch of quotes supporting universalist views. At the end of the day, we chose what we believe. I chose to believe God is as He has shown Himself to be in Jesus and so I rule out torture/torment/pitchforks on that basis, although I also believe, from the little I've read, that scriptural analysis bears that out.

 

[Hmm]

Google.

Helpful.

 

[Der Alte]

Do any of these extracts use the word "kolasis" though? This is the point I was addressing.
There was a wide diversity of views in the early church, as you know, and I could just as easily post a bunch of quotes supporting universalist views. At the end of the day, we chose what we believe. I chose to believe God is as He has shown Himself to be in Jesus and so I rule out torture/torment/pitchforks on that basis, although I also believe, from the little I've read, that scriptural analysis bears that out.

I would say anywhere "eternal punishment" is mentioned since the words only occur in one vs. very likely they are quoting/referring to Matt 23:45. But please take a look at my Kolasis quote from BDAG which lists about 50+ sources the authors consulted in determining the correct translation.
Yes, I have often acknowledged that there were a variety of views in the early church, but the UR side of the aisle pretends there is only one view, theirs.
So, you don't believe that God is as He revealed Himself to be in Jeremiah 13:11-14? Or Romans 1:24, 26,28?

 

[Der Alte]

The fact that we have a failing penal system does not mean that God is unable to refine us, any more than our broken banking system means that Jesus can't save. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Alright, alright, alright. God is able to refine those He sends to fiery punishment. Do you think after God punishes them for a while, He then purges their memories so that they don't remember that period in torment in those flames, ala Luke 16:19? So that they shed their old selfish, abusive etc. self? Wonder why there is not one word of scripture supporting that? If in the end God is going to purge their memories God must want to punish the unrighteous else He would do that memory purging thing before they get there.