Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Jipsah]

Have you ever read Lk 16:23?

I may have once of twice.

This dead guy was certainly being tormented. He had some kind of conscious awareness.

Then he wasn't "dead", was he? How exactly does one torment a corpse? And how do cadavers carry on conversations? As I said, let's not play word games.

 

[David Lowery]

I can't see how anyone can fully accept the idea of other people, and it's always other people!, being tortured forever, without shutting down our empathy and feelings. Arguments such as Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" may be used to justify this it's really just another example of ignoring our emotions.

There is weeping and gnashing of teeth outside of God's house. It is not me that is true, its the word that is true. No, its not a pretty scene. No, it wounds me that there are people that choose death as Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 30:19. Why choose the curse? The answer is, they love the darkness, they don't want to be brought into the light, for if they did, their deeds would come into the light. They choose darkness over light. I have men that proclaim themselves atheist or on the fence that I talk to on a regular basis. Some will call me up to go out to lunch because the meds they take only covers the pain, anxiety overcomes them and they know I don't judge them but love them. I tell that to people constantly, they need to hear it, that they are loved, that I love them. They desire comfort and relief. Yet, hold to things they should let go. I desperately want nothing more than for them to come into agreement with the word, to not to seek that separation. Their deliverance is assured, if they would just put their trust in Him, if they would just choose life.

I could go into aspects of the wedding feast, we could discuss the Parable of the Unfaithful Servant. These aspects go into depths of understanding but by the way you have positioned yourself with the word, I fear you would take it as me justifying Hell.

Btw, you have a lot of passion, I think you would be greatly suited for evangelism. The thought of hell is a stumbling block for you though. So, let me talk to your heart instead.

Do you judge God as being evil for the existence of Hell?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I knew you had provided a misquote, so no worries.

Philippians 2:12 NIV
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

And by what source or authority do you "know" in absolute terms that I made a misquote regarding Paul's imperative, Steven?

 

[Jipsah]

This is just a total convolution of reason and interpretation. It clearly shows that not only do you not know what faith is...you also fail to understand how it works.

Well, you've certainly extablished the unchallengable superiority of whatever it is you believe over whatever it his he believes. I know I'm impressed. <Laugh>

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you judge God as being evil for the existence of Hell?

That's a loaded question. It assumes that hell is real.
We are saying that BECAUSE God is NOT evil that hell CANNOT exist.

 

[Jipsah]

And I doubt you have even have the most infantile grasp of the scriptures or church history. But then ,that's just my opinion.

Worth every penny of the price charged, IMO.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Precisely. And there are a number of those. "Sinners all hate God" when a good many never give the existence of God a second thought, or those who for whatever reason follow a false god. "Sinners will never repent". Fact is a great many do, and without the incentive of torture. "God doesn't want anyone to go to be tormented forever" Then why do you believe that He designed eternal torture as the fate for everyone who dies in unbelief? And "God doesn't want people to roast in hell, but there's just nothing He can do." Seriously? He made the rules, but He can't change them? And why did He design it that way in the first place?
There are lots of them, all designed to make the idea of eternal torment seem less horrific, and thus make God look less like a vicious tyrant.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks argue “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly

 

[David Lowery]

That's a loaded question. It assumes that hell is real.
We are saying that BECAUSE God is NOT evil that hell CANNOT exist.

Whoa...i'm certainly an outlier here then.

Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” (Matthew 18:30-35)

Where does this man go to?

And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matthew 22:12-13)

What is the wedding feast garment and where is this place of weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

[Jipsah]

SO YOUR ERRANT HERESY CAN BE CORRECTED AND REBUKED FOR ALL TO SEE!

ECT IS RUBBISH REQUIRING WHOLESALE EISEGESIS TO SHORE IT UP!!!!

There; reckon I told you. Next topic?

 

[didactics]

You have to be alive to suffer torment. Let's not play word games, shall we?

Sure is. A doctrinal distinction.

The dead can't be tormented; they're dead. The damned, according to ECT folks, are being tormented, eternally. That requires eternal life. Some gift, huh?

The dead are conscience though, right? Even before the resurrection of the dead.

Paul Before Felix

But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
— Acts 24:14-15

Matthew Henry's Commentary
(Acts 24:15): “I have hope towards God, all my expectation is from him, and therefore all my desire is towards him and all my dependence upon him; my hope is towards God and not towards the world, towards another world and not towards this. I depend upon God and upon his power, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead at the end of time, of all, both the just and unjust; and the great thing I aim at in my religion is to obtain a joyful and happy resurrection, a share in the resurrection of the just.” Observe here, [1.] That there shall be a resurrection of the dead, the dead bodies of men, of all men from the beginning to the end of time. It is certain, not only that the soul does not die with the body, but that the body itself shall live again; we have not only another life to live when our present life is at an end, but there is to be another world, which shall commence when this world is at an end, into which all the children of men must enter at once by a resurrection from the dead, as they entered into this, one after another, by their birth. [2.] It shall be a resurrection both of the just and of the unjust, the sanctified and the unsanctified, of those that did well, and to them our Saviour has told us that it will be a resurrection of life; and of those that did evil, and to them that it will be a resurrection of condemnation, John 5:29. See Dan. 12:2. This implies that it will be a resurrection to a final judgment, by which all the children of men will be determined to everlasting happiness or misery in a world of retribution, according to what they were and what they did in this state of probation and preparation. The just shall rise by virtue of their union with Christ as their head; the unjust shall rise by virtue of Christ’s dominion over them as their Judge.

 

[Jipsah]

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96] ​

You don't get much more eternal that haing one's existence completedly eliminated from time and space, you reckon?

.Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago

You don't say!

+/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,”

NOT “age.”

Fascinating!

.Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T

I can't think of any.

​

 

[Der Alte]

...

You don't get much more eternal that haing one's existence completedly eliminated from time and space, you reckon?
You don't say!
Fascinating!
I can't think of any.

​

?

 

[Jipsah]

The dead are conscience though, right?

Word gaming again, aren't we? If you're dead, you're not conscious, only the living are. Yeah, St Paul is dead... here. But we believe he's alive in Heaven, don't we? Eternal life, right? Or is Heaven just a storage room for corpses?

You have to be alive in some form to be tormented, do we not? Otherwise you're tormenting a dead body,which, apart from being illegal in most states, would appear to be a singularly unrewarding pursuit.

"He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die." So yeah, there's the body. But you tell me he's still alive in either Heaven or hell. Which is it? Isn't word gaming fun?

 

[Der Alte]

The dead are conscience though, right? Even before the resurrection of the dead.
Paul Before Felix
But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
— Acts 24:14-15
Matthew Henry's Commentary
(Acts 24:15): “I have hope towards God, all my expectation is from him, and therefore all my desire is towards him and all my dependence upon him; my hope is towards God and not towards the world, towards another world and not towards this. I depend upon God and upon his power, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead at the end of time, of all, both the just and unjust; and the great thing I aim at in my religion is to obtain a joyful and happy resurrection, a share in the resurrection of the just.” Observe here, [1.] That there shall be a resurrection of the dead, the dead bodies of men, of all men from the beginning to the end of time. It is certain, not only that the soul does not die with the body, but that the body itself shall live again; we have not only another life to live when our present life is at an end, but there is to be another world, which shall commence when this world is at an end, into which all the children of men must enter at once by a resurrection from the dead, as they entered into this, one after another, by their birth. [2.] It shall be a resurrection both of the just and of the unjust, the sanctified and the unsanctified, of those that did well, and to them our Saviour has told us that it will be a resurrection of life; and of those that did evil, and to them that it will be a resurrection of condemnation, John 5:29. See Dan. 12:2. This implies that it will be a resurrection to a final judgment, by which all the children of men will be determined to everlasting happiness or misery in a world of retribution, according to what they were and what they did in this state of probation and preparation. The just shall rise by virtue of their union with Christ as their head; the unjust shall rise by virtue of Christ’s dominion over them as their Judge.

There are at least 3 passage which indicate that the unrighteous experience some kind of conscious existence after death.

Isaiah 14:9-14
(9) Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
(10) All of them will answer and say to you: ‘You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!’
(11) Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.
(12) “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
(13) You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’

Ezekiel 32:20-22
(20) They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes.
(21) The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
(22) “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Ezekiel 32:31
(31) “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 32:20-22
(20) They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes.
(21) The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
(22) “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Ezekiel 32:31
(31) “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.

Luke 16:22-30
(22) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
(23) and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
(24) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
(25) But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
(26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
(27) And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
(28) for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
(29) But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
(30) And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’


​

 

[didactics]

Word gaming again, aren't we? If you're dead, you're not conscious, only the living are. Yeah, St Paul is dead... here. But we believe he's alive in Heaven, don't we? Eternal life, right? Or is Heaven just a storage room for corpses?

You have to be alive in some form to be tormented, do we not? Otherwise you're tormenting a dead body,which, apart from being illegal in most states, would appear to be a singularly unrewarding pursuit.

"He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die." So yeah, there's the body. But you tell me he's still alive in either Heaven or hell. Which is it? Isn't word gaming fun?

Matthew Henry's Commentary
It is certain, not only that the soul does not die with the body, but that the body itself shall live again; we have not only another life to live when our present life is at an end, but there is to be another world, which shall commence when this world is at an end, into which all the children of men must enter at once by a resurrection from the dead, as they entered into this, one after another, by their birth.


The short version of it is this, the soul does not die. The soul is still conscious. If you die, that is referring to your body. This is not about word games because how you use the word “die” you know refers to the body. Perhaps you are confused by ECT folks because they refer to that phrase “second death” found in the Bible. That’s not the fault of ECT folks. [Rev 21:8; 2:11; 20:6; 20:14-15] Revelation is a difficult book to understand, I get that. All the verses that mention second death are all in this book of the Bible. At the very least, what I understand it to mean: it is the final destination of those who do not know Christ. There are no word games here because in context someone referring to a different kind of death uses the term “second death”.

 

[Jipsah]

You cannot debate scripture having obviously never read it.

That apparently doesn't prevent you from trying.

Are you also a member of Christogenea forums?

Never heard of them. Are you a member of any organization advocating the overthrow of the US gov't by force or violence?

 

[Jipsah]

How foolish.

Was that a confession?

 

[Jipsah]

THe short version of it is this, the soul does not die. The soul is still conscious. If you die, that is referring to your body.

So when the Scripture speaks of death, it never really means being dead, does it? I disagree with that. I believe it quite literally means death, the state of being dead, bereft of life, inanimate, you know, dead. But somehow we don't really believe that, although Scripture, IMO, clearly shows it.

You either have eternal life, or you die. Death is the eternal punishment, never having existed throughout eternity. The damned will not only cease to be, but cease to have been, ever.

This is not about word games because how you use the word “die” you know refers to the body.

So you believe, as I stated, that believers in ECT believer that everyone lives eternally, and that far from being a gift of God, it is simply the innate condition of human beings. It's a gift to the blessed, and a curse to the damned. Which is not what Scripture says, is it?

 

[didactics]

There are at least 3 passage which indicate that the unrighteous experience some kind of conscious existence after death.

Isaiah 14:9-14
(9) Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
(10) All of them will answer and say to you: ‘You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!’
(11) Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.
(12) “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
(13) You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’

Ezekiel 32:20-22
(20) They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes.
(21) The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
(22) “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Ezekiel 32:31
(31) “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.

. . .​

Luke 16:22-30
(22) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
(23) and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
(24) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
(25) But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
(26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
(27) And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
(28) for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
(29) But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
(30) And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’


​

I saw your earlier post stating that the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It made me pause and wonder if I had ever mistakenly called it that. What should I call it then, an illustration?

 

[Der Alte]

I saw your earlier post stating that the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It made me pause and wonder if I had ever mistakenly called it that. What should I call it then, an illustration?

A parable has a certain structure. Lazarus and the rich man account does not have that structure. It may be some other figure of speech.
In 1898 a scholar named E.V, Bullinger wrote a book titled "Figures of Speech used in the Bible." He identified 200+ such figures of speech in the Bible.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive