Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Saint Steven]

Notice here that the phrase is heart of the earth NOT under the earth. Though, I have to correct myself. Could it have been similar to the meaning under the earth? The phrase under the earth could at times refer to "in the abyss" or it could refer to being in the grave. I think it's irrelevant if it was an above ground tomb, as it still counts as a grave, right?

Thanks for your detailed response.

One additional thing to bear in mind is that Sheol is referred to as the Grave. Jesus rose from the Grave. He ascended.

Ephesians 4:9-10 NIV
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

 

[didactics]

Thanks for your detailed response.

One additional thing to bear in mind is that Sheol is referred to as the Grave. Jesus rose from the Grave. He ascended.

Ephesians 4:9-10 NIV
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

I get that it sounds strange to our ears to say that God would punish sinners for all of eternity. I don’t know if you have already heard all of the arguments made, but have you ever heard it put forward that God actually does this because he values his creation far more than we realize? Think about how he created us in his image. Would it not be more loving of our Creator to save all of his creation and everything in it? He will restore the earth and everyone in it, but he does not need to have everyone in it in the final analysis. For the humble will inherit the earth.

Now, I have not read the book The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis but I thought it was interesting to hear this talked about in a video. Matt Walsh discusses his religious views with Ben Shapiro. It is about how we ultimately choose hell because of our selfish nature. If interested watch from 3:42—5:59.

 

[Hmm]

I get that it sounds strange to our ears to say that God would punish sinners for all of eternity.

Yes, it does, for some reason.

I don’t know if you have already heard all of the arguments made, but have you ever heard it put forward that God actually does this because he values his creation far more than we realize?

Yes, I've heard this argument many times. It's that God so loved us, that He burns the vast majority of us for all eternity. The first clause is scriptural but has there been a subtle translation error or total sanity collapse with the second part? The logic of the sentence doesn't seem to flow somehow. Hard to put your finger on it though so I totally understand why some people would think that Jesus tortures people forever. It's totally reasonable to think so.

 

[FineLinen]

I get that it sounds strange to our ears to say that God would punish sinners for all of eternity.

There is only one purpose for punishment by the Father of all fathers! It is NOT an end in itself, but the means whereby we are brought into conformity with His mind & heart.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, it does, for some reason.
Yes, I've heard this argument many times. It's that God so loved us, that He burns the vast majority of us for all eternity. The first clause is scriptural but has there been a subtle translation error or total sanity collapse with the second part? The logic of the sentence doesn't seem to flow somehow. Hard to put your finger on it though so I totally understand why some people would think that Jesus tortures people forever. It's totally reasonable to think so.

If I use this faulty logic then God must not have loved all the people during the time of Noah or all the people in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cites of the plain or all the inhabitants in the Canaanite cities when He commanded Israel to enter those cities and kill every living thing. I have this picture in my mind of mothers climbing on top of hills, mountains, buildings, trees holding their babies up trying to keep them from drowning.
ETA: There is no "translation error" in any major version, subtle or otherwise. "Aionios" is an adjective and it does NOT mean "age" which is a noun.
Three vss. from a 26 vs. word study I did which conclusively shows that "aionios" does mean "eternal"/"everlasting."

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

 

[Saint Steven]

This new forum design will take some getting used to. A little buggy on my desktop computer. How is it on phones and tablets?

 

[didactics]

Yes, it does, for some reason.



Yes, I've heard this argument many times. It's that God so loved us, that He burns the vast majority of us for all eternity. The first clause is scriptural but has there been a subtle translation error or total sanity collapse with the second part? The logic of the sentence doesn't seem to flow somehow. Hard to put your finger on it though so I totally understand why some people would think that Jesus tortures people forever. It's totally reasonable to think so.

Well, I don’t know if this is biblical but I imagine the majority will be in heaven. Actually, I’m certain of it, but I’m not sure how exactly it will turn out that way. Revelation tells us that a third of the angels were hurled (fell) from their place (although, it’s said in more symbolic language, Revelation 12:4, 9). While it could be that the vast majority are perishing in this generation, the final outcome has more saints in heaven, or new earth. Jesus taught that the road is narrow…that leads to life and specifically few there be that find it could refer to that generation (Mt 7:14).


Though, I should be asking you does anyone deserve to be in heaven in the first place, or does God need anything from us that he should lack?


Somehow I wonder if the answer doesn’t really satisfy, that God doesn’t ultimately send anyone to hell but that is something people choose themselves. Now I do believe hell is something freely chosen, but I wonder if it really satisfies the question— why does God send people there? Instead, the answer is because it ultimately brings him glory. He chooses that some are redeemed and others are left to pay their debt themselves. The damned are not left to fade out of existence because they are still made in God’s image, and he can’t take away that which represents a part him. It is to his glory then that the damned are compelled (forced) to worship him.


I once heard a preacher say that God is not actually separated from the damned, for God is omniscient. God’s presence very much remains with the damned, for he is there in wrath. In fact, it is stated in Justin Peters’ gospel presentation. To quote something in the following,


People in Hell are separated from God relationally. This is what is in view in 2 Thessalonians 1:8- 9. There is no relationship between God and the condemned. There is no fellowship. There is no love exchanged. But judicially, people in Hell will be in the presence of God for all of eternity as His wrath is poured out.


Here is another quote and relating to that question,


The question is often asked, how could a loving God send people to Hell?


The question itself is a bit misleading because it implies that God is actively sending people who are merely passive participants. This is not the case, though. People whom God sends to Hell are there because of a lifetime of sin and rebellion against God. Further, God’s love is not a coddling love. It is a holy and just love.

The Gospel Pop Out — Justin Peters Ministries

 

[FineLinen]

"The damned are not left to fade out of existence because they are still made in God’s image, and he can’t take away that which represents a part him. It is to his glory then that the damned are compelled (forced) to worship him."

Every knee bows in worship! It is NOT perfunctory genuflections , but in/en the Name of all names!

 

[Der Alte]

Every knee bows in worship! It is NOT perfunctory genuflections , but in/en the Name of all names!

Jeremiah didn't get that memo.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

 

[didactics]

Every knee bows in worship! It is NOT perfunctory genuflections , but in/en the Name of all names!

Who said anything about worship being perfunctory? The damned will worship at the name of Jesus for all eternity, far from being brief.


As a side note, I noticed the rhetorical question you put forward as a footer: Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Sorry if I sound like a nitpicker, but I thought of something. Sin is not something that needs healing, more accurately, it is like a fine, offense to God and missing the mark so to speak. Sin needs forgiving. Sorrow and pain need healing. I can't help but notice the rhetoric is to appeal to universalism. What I contend is that sin does not go unchecked. The damned may continue in their wayward self, but they will still have to bow the knee.

 

[FineLinen]

"Who said anything about worship being perfunctory? The worship of the damned will be at the name of Jesus for all eternity, far from being brief."

If you know what it means to be in/en Jesus, you are on the way to grasping what every being, in every dimension, will ultimately experience en union with Him.

En = in, not at

 

[didactics]

If you know what it means to be in/en Jesus, you are on the way to grasping what every being, in every dimension, will ultimately experience en union with Him.

En = in, not at

You quoted me before I edited my mistake. I posted "The worship of the damned" and that doesn't seem quite right, as it suggests they are the object of faith. I switched it to "The damned will worship".


Colossians 1:17 says, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." I don't know why you insist on the word "in" in this case. Christ sustains the universe. That's the only kind of universal"ism" I follow.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ sustains the universe. That's the only kind of universal"ism" I follow.

Yes, let's follow that thought...

The one who sustains, provides sustenance. (life)
How utterly contrary is the idea that the sustainer of the universe would be about maintaining the consequence of the Fall. (death)
Did Christ not, with but one righteous deed, undo what humankind had done?
Thus, sustaining ALL things.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Did anyone else read the topic by Anarkiss titled: Hell ?
The topic is gone and so is Anarkiss. Good work by all involved. - LOL
I have a copy of the OP available for anyone who wants to read it. (by PM)

 

[Saint Steven]

Did anyone else read the topic by Anarkiss titled: Hell ?
The topic is gone and so is Anarkiss. Good work by all involved. - LOL
I have a copy of the OP available for anyone who wants to read it. (by PM)

Now another one by truthquest

 

[FineLinen]

You quoted me before I edited my mistake. I posted "The worship of the damned" and that doesn't seem quite right, as it suggests they are the object of faith. I switched it to "The damned will worship".


Colossians 1:17 says, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." I don't know why you insist on the word "in" in this case. Christ sustains the universe. That's the only kind of universal"ism" I follow.

 

[FineLinen]

You quoted me before I edited my mistake. I posted "The worship of the damned" and that doesn't seem quite right, as it suggests they are the object of faith. I switched it to "The damned will worship".


Colossians 1:17 says, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." I don't know why you insist on the word "in" in this case. Christ sustains the universe. That's the only kind of universal"ism" I follow.

The universe is indeed held together by the Beginning & Ending, the ta pante, who is the Guide & Goal of the all.

I repeat, the entire universe, encompassing the heavens earth & underworld all ultimately bow in worship. It is NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but in what being in/en Christ means.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension IN worship.

 

[public hermit]

Did anyone else read the topic by Anarkiss titled: Hell ?
The topic is gone and so is Anarkiss. Good work by all involved. - LOL
I have a copy of the OP available for anyone who wants to read it. (by PM)

So far, that one thread is the only upside of seeing nearly 20 year old content. Great quotes.

 

[public hermit]

Now another one by truthquest

Okay, I take my first response back. The UR threads are great. Old questions; same answer worth repeating. I noticed you're liking a lot of old posts lol.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, I take my first response back. The UR threads are great. Old questions; same answer worth repeating. I noticed you're liking a lot of old posts lol.

They may be reruns, but if you haven't seen it, it's new to you. - LOL