Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[didactics]

So when the Scripture speaks of death, it never really means being dead, does it? I disagree with that. I believe it quite literally means death, the state of being dead, bereft of life, inanimate, you know, dead. But somehow we don't really believe that, although Scripture, IMO, clearly shows it.

You either have eternal life, or you die. Death is the eternal punishment, never having existed throughout eternity. The damned will not only cease to be, but cease to have been, ever.

So you believe, as I stated, that believers in ECT believer that everyone lives eternally, and that far from being a gift of God, it is simply the innate condition of human beings. It's a gift to the blessed, and a curse to the damned. Which is not what Scripture says, is it?

What makes eternal life a gift to the blessed? that they enjoy God and have his favor. Eternal punishment is a curse because the damned will never have his favor. The "life" of the damned is an unfavorable one. The Scripture most certainly speaks of death as in being dead. "The wages of sin is death" meaning our sin will be the death of us, whether we have lived to be old enough to know better, or the sin nature that we inherit as descendants of Adam (but that's beside the point). What I mean is that if we reach the age of accountability, then we have all sinned. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23). Somehow I wonder if I'm overthinking that. Have we all sinned because whether or not we are old enough, we have all sinned in Adam (Ro 5:12). We all fall short of God's glory because we are descendants of Adam. A child not old enough to commit a sin does have a sin nature, but if the young child dies before the age of accountability, that is not held against them. It's off topic, but I stress this point for a reason. What I'm trying to establish is that sin, whether it's just our nature, or we are old enough to be held accountable, it is wages. Death is wages (Ro 6:23). We all die eventually, break down and wear out because of sin, the curse, the fall. If a small child dies premature, the only wages taken in account is that sin entered the world. However, you and I have sinned multiple times and have stored up his wrath. All of that is going to be taken into account when we die. If we are saved, God is not going to hold it against us. It took the death of Christ to remit our sins, if we are saved. Jesus is the life (Jn 14:6) so the blessed enjoy close relation to the author of life. That is what makes eternal life significant to the believing. Those who do not have eternal life, do not have favor with God; the wrath of God remains (Jn 3:36).

Eternal life is a kind of life, a life that is set upon by the savior, Christ. He bestows special grace, or you might call this eternal life, exaltation.

 

[Der Alte]

...

I may have once of twice.
Then he wasn't "dead", was he? How exactly does one torment a corpse? And how do cadavers carry on conversations? As I said, let's not play word games.

Oh no! Was Luke lying in Lk 16:22?

Luke 16:22-24
(22) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
(23) and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
(24) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’​

 

[Saint Steven]

And by what source or authority do you "know" in absolute terms that I made a misquote regarding Paul's imperative, Steven?

Please correct me if I was in error. Thanks.

But... I have your own words as evidence. What more source, or "author-ity" do I need? - LOL

Furthermore, is anything ABSOLUTE to a philosopher?

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's a loaded question. It assumes that hell is real.
We are saying that BECAUSE God is NOT evil that hell CANNOT exist.

Whoa...i'm certainly an outlier here then.

Apologies... I thought we had worked hard to make you feel welcome here.

I hope you don't need to find yourself in an echo chamber where everyone agrees so that you can feel comfortable.

Personally, I want to hear everyone out. I want to understand challenging views. Even if they make me rather uncomfortable. Come on in... the water's fine. - LOL

You are welcome here. IMO

 

[Saint Steven]

Whoa...i'm certainly an outlier here then.

Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” (Matthew 18:30-35)

Where does this man go to?

And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matthew 22:12-13)

What is the wedding feast garment and where is this place of weeping and gnashing of teeth?

I imagine the same place that this will happen. Scripture below. The "Day" (age) of judgment, redemption, reward and restoration.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Hmm]

I imagine the same place that this will happen. Scripture below. The "Day" (age) of judgment, redemption, reward and restoration.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Saint Steven]

..................

Nobody home... ???

Saint Steven said: ↑
I imagine the same place that this will happen. Scripture below. The "Day" (age) of judgment, redemption, reward and restoration.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Please correct me if I was in error. Thanks.

Nah! There's no need to correct you since you're already reading someone like Peter Enns. I figure that anyone who is willing to do so more or less has their head in the right place.

But... I have your own words as evidence. What more source, or "author-ity" do I need? - LOL

Lol! .... if only I was my own authority. That would be awesome! I could have saved so much money!

Furthermore, is anything ABSOLUTE to a philosopher?

It could be.

 

[didactics]

I could be getting something wrong here, as I said in one sentence that sin is wages, but then I said death is wages. I mean to say that differently, but I’m still working out how to say it right.

What I'm trying to establish is that sin, whether it's just our nature, or we are old enough to be held accountable, it is wages. Death is wages (Ro 6:23).

Sin entered the world because of the curse of the fall, when Adam sinned. Sin entering the world may be another way of saying that God set a punishment on creation, which involved a curse. When we are old enough to be held accountable to God for our sin, part of the curse is that God takes all of that sin we do into account. The sin itself is not wages, sin is crime. Death is wages. You are paying for your crime with the wages of death.

@Jipsah
I once heard a pastor explain that being saved has three stages. You were saved, you are being saved and you will be saved. When Jesus met the samaritan woman at the well and said that you can have living water which leads to eternal life, he was speaking about it as a present reality. Those who have the Son have eternal life. 1 John 5:12 tells us that if you do “not have the Son of God” then you do “not have life.” What? Is the Bible itself playing word games with me? Yes! The point is that God is trying to convey a message to us that is difficult to understand, namely an eternal perspective. Sin does not necessarily result in physical death right away. When Satan tempted Eve he told her that if you eat from the tree you will not surely die. He was right on that part: they would not die right away, but they would begin to die. Satan was actually correcting Eve because she said that if we eat of the tree we will die die.

EDIT: Wait, now I'm in trouble, as I said that God is [trying] to convey a message to us that is difficult to understand. Not exactly. God did it perfectly. I am the one trying to convey what that message is. So I guess I should own up to it. As an ECT folk, I am playing word games. I do so because I'm trying to interpret the meaning of God's perfect word when he brings up the subject of eternity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

More ad homs, sad sigh. But carry on if it helps.

It really doesn't. But applying ad hominems to other folks is so much fun, especially when it's posited under the guise of "sound deduction," wouldn't you agree?

 

[Hmm]

Nobody home... ???

Good question. Is there a pilot in the ship? Perhaps this is one for our ever-courteous and self-identified philosopher?

But the more mundane answer is that I must have sent an empty reply by mistake while scrolling through on my phone.

If we live for God while fearing Hell, we're on the wrong path to the wrong God.

Great point. If we're on a path of fear, we're never going to arrive at the destination of love. The journey is the destination. I remember talking to a group of pretty-much communists in a pub once and it struck me that they were all very angry, and I imagined them hoping for the day when they would be chasing the rich down the road with axes in their hands. They spoke about a future society of love and peace but I remember thinking how can people so full of hate ever bring this state about? In contrast, it's easy to see how the non-violence approach of Gandhi and Martin Luther King could lead to a more peaceful society, as indeed it did.

 

[didactics]

Good question. Is there a pilot in the ship? Perhaps this is one for our ever-courteous and self-identified philosopher?

But the more mundane answer is that I must have sent an empty reply by mistake while scrolling through on my phone.



Great point. If we're on a path of fear, we're never going to arrive at the destination of love. The journey is the destination. I remember talking to a group of pretty-much communists in a pub once and it struck me that they were all very angry, and I imagined them hoping for the day when they would be chasing the rich down the road with axes in their hands. They spoke about a future society of love and peace but I remember thinking how can people so full of hate ever bring this state about? In contrast, it's easy to see how the non-violence approach of Gandhi and Martin Luther King could lead to a more peaceful society, as indeed it did.

Really? She just called God with a capital letter at the start, the wrong God. Does that not deserve any attention? Is she calling God wrong but mean to say others have wrong intentions toward God or is she saying others follow the gods?

 

[atpollard]

Oh no! Was Luke lying in Lk 16:22?

Luke 16:22-24
(22) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
(23) and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
(24) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’​

Don't be silly. Luke was just the scribe reporting what many others saw and heard ... it was Jesus that lied.

[Luke 1:1-4]

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Good question. Is there a pilot in the ship? Perhaps this is one for our ever-courteous and self-identified philosopher?

Now......calculating......most......efficient......response.....

 

[atpollard]

Are you a member of any organization advocating the overthrow of the US gov't by force or violence?

Do the DEMOCRAT and REPUBLICAN Parties count?

 

[Der Alte]

Don't be silly. Luke was just the scribe reporting what many others saw and heard ... it was Jesus that lied.
[Luke 1:1-4]

This cracked me up. Best laugh I have had in a while.

 

[Der Alte]

Do the DEMOCRAT and REPUBLICAN Parties count?

I think they can count pretty good 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 after that not so sure.

 

[didactics]

Don't be silly. Luke was just the scribe reporting what many others saw and heard ... it was Jesus that lied.

[Luke 1:1-4]

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
— 2 Peter 1:20-21

If you say that Luke was an historian that is correct, but keep in mind he was a highly respected one at that. He didn’t have the approval of just anyone, for he conferred with one or more of the apostles.

The teaching of the rich man and Lazarus is very appropriate to the topic at hand, make no mistake.

 

[Hmm]

Is she calling God wrong but mean to say others have wrong intentions toward God or is she saying others follow the gods?

You should be asking her, shouldn't you?

 

[didactics]

Consider this...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

of [things] in heaven:
the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies:

and [things] in earth;
both good men, and bad men:

and [things] under the earth;
or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Taken from John Gill's Exposition of the Bible


2:10 God was so completely satisfied with the redemptive work of Christ that He determined that every knee should bow to Him — of beings in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. This does not mean that all these beings will be saved. Those who do not willingly bow the knee to Him now will one day be compelled to do so. Those who will not be reconciled in the day of His grace will be subjugated in the day of His judgement.

Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald

By the way, you brought up one of the most puzzling and intriguing texts in the NT (1 Peter 3:18-20). According to the Believer’s Bible Commentary it reads as follows.

3:19 …It has been made the pretext for such unbiblical doctrines as…universal salvation…The second interpretation is that Peter is describing what happened in the days of Noah. It was the spirit of Christ who preached through Noah to the unbelieving generation before the flood. They were not disembodied spirits at that time, but living men and women who rejected the warnings of Noah and were destroyed by the flood. So now they are spirits in the prison of Hades.


I’m not certain if this is the correct view but it sounds better than whatever universalists are putting forward. If I’m not mistaken, they link this passage to Ephesians 4:9 to say that he preached the gospel to those in hell. Rather it is more likely that captives are the conquered foes and special gifts for men are believers. Lastly, in order to fill the whole universe as William MacDonald puts it— in the sense that He is the source of all blessing, the sum of all virtues, and the supreme Sovereign over all.

Matthew 12:40
So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.
That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it

Taken from John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Notice here that the phrase is heart of the earth NOT under the earth. Though, I have to correct myself. Could it have been similar to the meaning under the earth? The phrase under the earth could at times refer to "in the abyss" or it could refer to being in the grave. I think it's irrelevant if it was an above ground tomb, as it still counts as a grave, right?