Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Saint Steven]

As you know, it took me awhile to come right out and declare that I believe in UR. For a long time, I qualified my position because I wanted to say we just don't know, which I believe is true. But I cannot see how divine love makes sense if everyone is not brought to fulfillment. And I have to be honest about that. Divine love that doesn't succeed in bringing each creature to its created purpose is not love. And, I'll just include animals in that, too. God so loved the cosmos.

You're hired. - LOL

Yes, what a mess if things (all creation) don't circle back to the original perfection and long-term intended purpose. (peace and rest) Our savior is not a God of loose ends. He's in the business of restoration, not destruction. Therefore... (insert obvious answer here)

 

[Hmm]

It seems that there are two different fears of hell.
1) The fear of hell that sends them to church in the first place. (true or false salvation?)
2) The unbelief in hell that sends you to hell. (because hell is for unbelievers)

Therefore, ECT proponents discuss the subject of hell with much fear.
If you convince them that hell doesn't exist (and they may hope you are right),
they risk ending up there if we UR proponents are wrong. Slippery slope.

Yes, it's the fear that dares not speak it's name because, as you say, of the thought that the very act of questioning ECT ensures that you will be sentenced to it.

 

[didactics]

That's a difficult passage. And the one I assumed you had in mind. It raises some interesting and frightening questions.

These "false disciples" as you are labeling them were operating in signs and wonders. No one can prophesy in God's name, cast out demons, and perform miracles in the flesh. These are manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Yet Jesus says: "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Not sure how manifesting spiritual gifts equates to "lawlessness". Or how anyone could operate in the gifts without a relationship with Christ.

So... how useful is this scripture in identifying "false" disciples? And if it is in fact useless, in this regard, do you have anything else to support your theory?

It could be referring to false signs and wonders. There are plenty of people who claim to be a part of a healing ministry only to rob people of their hard-earned money. There is the kind of stuff like sow a seed to this ministry and you will be blessed, giving people a false hope. Or there is the leg lengthening trick that Todd White has done multiple times, which is psychosomatic.

 

[Hmm]

Or there is the leg lengthening trick that Todd White has done multiple times, which is psychosomatic.

Wow, I googled that and just watched a video of it. It was about as convincing as a Frenchman making his wedding vows (joke!)

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, it's the fear that dares not speak it's name because, as you say, of the thought that the very act of questioning ECT ensures that you will be sentenced to it.

Reminds me of these renderings of "hell" as a person in Revelation, courtesy of the KJV.
Makes one wonder if "hell" is the doctrine of a demon by the same name. ??? (1 Timothy 4:1)

1. Revelation 6:8
   And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
   
   
2. Revelation 20:13
   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
   
   
3. Revelation 20:14
   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Saint Steven]

It could be referring to false signs and wonders. There are plenty of people who claim to be a part of a healing ministry only to rob people of their hard-earned money. There is the kind of stuff like sow a seed to this ministry and you will be blessed, giving people a false hope. Or there is the leg lengthening trick that Todd White has done multiple times, which is psychosomatic.

So, is that all you have for your "true" and "false" disciples/coverts theory? "It could be..." ???

I just realized that you changed horses midstream.
The original claim was false converts, but then you changed to false disciples.
Neither of which hold water better than a sieve.

 

[public hermit]

It seems that there are two different fears of hell.
1) The fear of hell that sends them to church in the first place. (true or false salvation?)
2) The unbelief in hell that sends you to hell. (because hell is for unbelievers)

Therefore, ECT proponents discuss the subject of hell with much fear.
If you convince them that hell doesn't exist (and they may hope you are right),
they risk ending up there if we UR proponents are wrong. Slippery slope.

That's a great point I hadn't really considered, i.e., the fear if you accept UR you will go to hell. Obviously, that would mean they hadn't really accepted UR, but it must be very difficult to cross that bridge. For myself, it was more about which position makes the most sense, and I guess I had already accepted the absurdity (in my mind) of ECT so that fear wasn't in play and hadn't been for some time.

I guess, in deference to @2PhiloVoid , concerns, I should try to be more understanding about that fear.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You also didn't have my mother.

....... Yeah. ........................................................ And you didn't have mine.

Thank God!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So is it any different that you just compared proponents of UR to atheists?

I agree, and I'm guilty of this, that it would help the flow of conversation if we all qualified our statements appropriately as, "This is what I think..." But, I also find it interesting that critiquing ECT makes people feel attacked, personally. Why is that? If you critique UR, I'm not going to think you are attacking me so much as the position. But people seem to feel attacked when eternal damnation is critiqued. That tells me that people are very much identified with the Doctrine. To criticize ECT is to criticize their person.

I think you're right on this point, PH, but you're probably understating the complexity of the problem among those who aver so strongly for ECT. There's usually more in the Matrix than simply that ECT is a part of their outlook on life.

 

[didactics]

So, is that all you have for your "true" and "false" disciples/coverts theory? "It could be..." ???

I just realized that you changed horses midstream.
The original claim was false converts, but then you changed to false disciples.
Neither of which hold water better than a sieve.

Well isn't it interesting, that true converts are disciples? What I mean by could be is that I give examples, so it is not an exhaustive list of what false converts do. Side note, there is nothing wrong with being blessed and the wisdom of proverbs teaches that being wise, you will generally be blessed. What a false convert may do is give the false promise that you are guaranteed to prosper. There is nothing wrong with prospering in this life. Some are tricked into believing that if they sow a seed to a ministry, they are guaranteed to have a prosperous life, and if they give enough they will be healed of a terminal illness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So is it any different that you just compared proponents of UR to atheists?

As far as I'm concerned, I did no such thing. I recognize that Universalists have their own interlocutionary and ideological niche, and then atheists have another. I'm only insinuating that, from a purely secular level, there is some expressed overlap of ethical concerns (and self initiated moral evaluations). I'm not saying that Universalist Christians are "just like" today's Atheists. I know they're not; I also see Universalist Christians as.......fellow Christians.

But if we want to put the shoe on the other foot where I'm inculcated, I suppose some folks could compare me with various Skeptics if they like and they WILL INDEED see some similar epistemic concerns (ala Sagan, Sartre, etc, etc, etc, etc. ?) This isn't by accident.

But thus is the life of the philosopher, even a Christian one, ay PH?

 

[public hermit]

I think you're right on this point, PH, but you're probably understating the complexity of the problem among those who aver so strongly for ECT. There's usually more in the Matrix than simply that ECT is a part of their outlook on life.

That's a fair point. It just seems the reactions are very strong. But as @Saint Steven pointed out, there is probably some fear involved that I wasn't considering.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Reminds me of these renderings of "hell" as a person in Revelation, courtesy of the KJV.
Makes one wonder if "hell" is the doctrine of a demon by the same name. ??? (1 Timothy 4:1)

1. Revelation 6:8
   And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
   
   
2. Revelation 20:13
   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
   
   
3. Revelation 20:14
   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It's probably due to the work of a demon dressed up as an English (read: Anglo-Saxon) Gentleman.

I guess saying "Hades" was one syllable too many for him ...

 

[Scott Lary]

False converts?
How can a conversion be false?
If the old is gone and the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) isn't that evidence of something?

Sounds like a slippery slope.
How are such things measured?

And certainly no one on earth qualified or entitled to judge it.

 

[David Lowery]

Yes sir, I brought up that verse more out of wariness in my own heart of the question asked. What I was searching for was a reverence to the word so it may be authoritative, for we believe, in our hearts, not minds.

The question there is what is Christ referring to as "these commands"?

The whole word, for to receive in part is to be only a part. To explain this in a part, Jesus takes the word given to a previous generation, given by Isaiah, and applies it to his current generation by saying:
This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ (Matthew 15:8-9)

The question one might have, if he can take a word given to a previous generation and apply it to His current generation, may He not do so again? So, let it by the whole word that the word be given where not one jot or tittle be not completed.

The Beatitudes he just spoke, the law, or the new commands he gives as he continues?

I started getting my sight with those Beatitudes! When there is an appearance of only two answers, always look to the third for often, the Spirit dwells in the third awaiting to testify to truth.

Blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. One that sees himself poor will seek to become rich in what he seeks. Many present themselves as empty cups presenting themselves as a full, may anything be added to the empty cup that proclaims itself full? So many say in their hearts, "I know" and this is the reason why there sin remains, no knowledge or understanding may come to the heart that says 'I know' already. His word is Spirit and Life and gives this light by seeing the inner self, the inner nature of man for the outer is a manifestation of the inner. You will know them by their fruit.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, (Matthew 15:9)

Jesus came to speak to the poor, but do they see themselves poor? Was this not the word given to Laodicea in Revelation 3:15-17? Was this a new word or both a word and commandment already given? This is part of the sight He gives to those that are blind. The law and the commandments were to give that sight, like a mirror, for if we judged ourselves we would not need to be judged. Not just physical, a spiritual sight, because I was once blind but now I see. Jesus did that and continues this work in man to this day.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's a great point I hadn't really considered, i.e., the fear if you accept UR you will go to hell. Obviously, that would mean they hadn't really accepted UR, but it must be very difficult to cross that bridge.

UR is a very threatening thing to them. For those who don't understand it, as soon as the word Universalism is mentioned their hackles are up and they are in attack mode, armed with (blatant and unapologetic ignorance) a caricature of what they think it is about. Ironically, they view it as a salvation issue, but I do not. So, the stage is set.

I have a lot of respect for those (like yourself) who will take the time to learn to understand UR from our perspective. I am under no compulsion to convert anyone, as I said, I don't view it is a salvation issue. Everyone is already saved by Christ's completed work on our behalf. It's not about us, never was. Not to say that we don't need to work out our salvation, we do. But...

 

[Saint Steven]

Well isn't it interesting, that true converts are disciples? What I mean by could be is that I give examples, so it is not an exhaustive list of what false converts do. Side note, there is nothing wrong with being blessed and the wisdom of proverbs teaches that being wise, you will generally be blessed. What a false convert may do is give the false promise that you are guaranteed to prosper. There is nothing wrong with prospering in this life. Some are tricked into believing that if they sow a seed to a ministry, they are guaranteed to have a prosperous life, and if they give enough they will be healed of a terminal illness.

That's a lot of back-pedaling... what's your point?
I hope there is some delicious lemon pie under all that meringue. (must be lunch time - LOL)

In case you can't remember what we were talking about (I can't either) let's address this. (thanks)

Should we really be about the business of attempting to divide the church into what we judge to be true or false converts? Or can we find more edifying things to do with one another? (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

 

[Saint Steven]

And certainly no one on earth qualified or entitled to judge it.

Thanks, Scott.
Welcome to the forum if I haven't already greeted you.
So many newbies, I'm losing track. All good though.

I would love to see a lot more encouraging of one another and a lot less doctrinal hairsplitting and arguing on the forum. How about you?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes sir, I brought up that verse more out of wariness in my own heart of the question asked. What I was searching for was a reverence to the word so it may be authoritative, for we believe, in our hearts, not minds.

Welcome to the forum, David.
I'm not getting alerts when you quote my posts without the username.
Hopefully I didn't miss any earlier... but... (send help)

Let's try this again. Your post didn't really address the question.

The question is, what is Christ referring to as "these commands"?

Matthew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[David Lowery]

Welcome to the forum, David.
I'm not getting alerts when you quote my posts without the username.
Hopefully I didn't miss any earlier... but... (send help)

Ah, that's my naivete in the use of quotes with this site, I apologize. I think i see now how to correctly quote.

Thank you so much for your questions. I'm actually here to bring fire to what I've built on the foundation. I'd rather see it here than on the day where we will experience great loss or reward. 1 Corinthians 3:13