Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[shepherdsword]

That's the thing though isn't it? It's not explicit and it's wishful thinking on your part that it is.

Is that the best you can come up with? I mean you totally ignore what the bible actually says about the topic and project your propensity for wishful thinking onto someone else. Do you actually have an alternate interpretation for the verses I posted? They can't be any more explicit.

 

[dowthut]

He does indeed. But "Hell" with the capital "H" is not a biblical word. It's a Norse word that's reminiscent of Dante or a smiling plumber when he presents you with his bill.

Jesus said "aionios kolais" which means "correction or pruning lasting for an age". Our word eon comes from aionios and it indicates a long time but not an eternity. The phrase has is translated as "eternal punishment" in most, but by no means all, English Bible translations and ECT is based on nothing more than that, a crass mistranslation.

The Bible doesn't talk about Hell at all. It talks about Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and Tartarus instead, all of which have different meanings but none of which mean "eternal hell". But none of them are the sort of place you want to go to, even if it is for a time-limited duration, which is why God warns us of them. Correction is never an easy thing.

But tainting God with the ECT brush is not the sort of place we want to go to either. It means saying goodbye to a God of love.

I have been a "born again" Christian most of my life and have always had a problem with an eternal torment in Hell for unbelievers. It is just in the last few years that I have come to understand that "Hell" is not a word that even exists in the Bible. But this brings about a whole new complex problem. If the Catholic church created the word "Hell" then what else have they created and what else do we believe that is a lie? It has really shaken my faith.

 

[shepherdsword]

You say that like it's a bad thing. - LOL

Only if a damnable heresy is a bad thing.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are some that think hell is not eternal, but they may not believe it is remedial.

Yes, like Annihilationists.
Although they may actually believe it is remedial,
in the sense that it "remedies" the sin problem.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You referred to "your source on Gehenna." Actually, I directly quoted 3 non-Biblical sources, with links to each. The Jewish Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
My position remains, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which the Jews called both sheol and Ge hinnom in the OT, Gehinnom and sheol was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades. What Jesus taught about gehenna and hades did not contradict but supported this belief.
And I have in the past and can do again posted archaeological evidence that there never was a trash dump in Gehenna. There was such a trash dump, but it was the next valley over, the Kidron valley.

Right. ECT was one of the positions, among others, even at the time of Jesus.

The problem is that we can't assume that, whatever we think the New Testament writers reported about what they thought Jesus meant about anything, they all necessarily agreed with each other on the topic of the "nature of Gehenna."

Moreover, I think we both know that meanings of ideas, even those in the Bible, are not determined solely by lexical studies, especially not by the study of singular terms. No, we have to get into various levels of context and historical, comparative usage, among other things such as 'which' hermeneutical and exegetical method a person has chosen to use when reading and studying the ancient pages of a foreign set of texts.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with you on this about "who's right" on a topic that I think is ambiguous all the way around ...

And one more thing, in the here and how, I'm not going to be concerned about 'Hell' nor am I going to accentuate it for any kind of apologetic purposes. It doesn't need to be accentuated, but for some reason there is still a number of pastors and preachers who think presenting Hell up front is the prime locus of motivation for the Christian life. I disagree with them.

 

[Hmm]

Is that the best you can come up with? I mean you totally ignore what the bible actually says about the topic and project your propensity for wishful thinking onto someone else. Do you actually have an alternate interpretation for the verses I posted? They can't be any more explicit.

It's simply not possible to discuss the Bible rationally with someone who says that you "totally ignore what the Bible actually says".

 

[Saint Steven]

Only if a damnable heresy is a bad thing.

Sorry to laugh. You may have been serious.

Welcome to the forum.

Perhaps I should ask you what your definition of "heresy" is?

 

[Hmm]

It has really shaken my faith.

You faith sounds strong to me too though if it can bear up against critical analysis. It's shaken, not collapsed, and this is a prerequisite for growth.

 

[Jason J Marion]

My 2 cents- and that’s probably all it’s worth…

God didn’t make a ‘mistake’ by leaving the book of Enoch or any other book He PURPOSEFULLY left out of the Holy Scriptures, out. It’s not like he was doing a school assignment and forgot to write/include some books.

Is hell eternal? Why does it matter- we, as Christians shouldn’t fear Hell anyways. We are under His love covenant. Why argue if God is just or not- in your limited mortal mind, you’re actually trying to know (even a piece) God’s mind? The actual arrogance of that statement is mind-boggling that people on THIS THREAD- are arguing if God is ‘really’ just. Wow.

All I know folks, is that Jesus taught 3x on hell compared to His preaching on heaven- and that’s enough to get my attention.

 

[Jipsah]

For us in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation. But Hell as a warning for those who are not in Christ Jesus.

In my experience the people who don't believe in Jesus don't believe in hell, either.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Romans 8:1
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”

For us in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation. But Hell as a warning for those who are not in Christ Jesus. God wants us to warn people, he wants them to repent and be saved. God Bless

I think we might need to be careful with that tactical assumption.

 

[Hmm]

The actual arrogance of that statement is mind-boggling that people on THIS THREAD- are arguing if God is ‘really’ just. Wow.

You are misunderstanding the arguments. No one is saying that God isn't just. It's about whether ECT is just and therefore probably true or unjust and therefore definitely false (because God is just).

The argument is also being made that ECT is unscriptural and this is something which many serious scholars believe.

 

[public hermit]

God, not man decides what is/is not worse.

And yet, you say you have decided for God. Interesting.

 

[Jipsah]

God hates the workers of iniquity

Which is to say everybody, right? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no, not one.

and every sinner deserves hell

See above.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matthew 10:28

Be of good cheer, we've been assured by one the participants here that God never destroys anyone in hell, and others have declared that not only does He not destroy anyone in hell, tha He is in fact unable to destroy anyone at all. (I find both those assertions fairly dubious, myself.)

 

[Der Alte]

And yet, you say you have decided for God. Interesting.

Is that a fact? Mind telling me where?

 

[didactics]

Yes, like Annihilationists.
Although they may actually believe it is remedial,
in the sense that it "remedies" the sin problem.

Yes, but you are talking about something that's a whole other level because you mean remedial as in role reversal. The wages of sin is death meaning it's likened to capital punishment. That's not language you use if it's likened to twenty years in prison. Imputed righteousness is important to this discussion because guilty though we are, God can take the punishment off us. It's likened to having your fine paid in full. No use in paying that fine after twenty years in hell, as the point is to have that transaction take place before then. No one could appease the wrath of God the same way Jesus Christ bore the punishment on the cross in order to get the get out of jail free card. Christ's redemption only works if his own bypass the judgment. We are appointed once to die and then the judgment. We are not afforded twice to consider ourselves dead to sin, once on this side of life, and another for the other side of life (or downgraded life).

 

[Jipsah]

Again your opinion is not relevant.

Neither, IMO, are the opinions of the ancient Jews. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not."

before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol

Suits me. How much good did it do 'em?

I believe that hell exists on the authority of our Lord Christ, not the opinions of the Jews. They got too much wrong for me to pay too much heed to their opinions.

 

[Jipsah]

They should be infinite sins?

Finite people can't do anything infinite.

 

[public hermit]

Is that a fact? Mind telling me where?

(The Old One), you assume God will torture, forever, unrepentant sinners. That is not an established fact; therefore, you are speaking for God.

Let's see how good your German is, Der Alte:

 

[dowthut]

Neither, IMO, are the opinions of the ancient Jews. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not."

Suits me. How much good did it do 'em?

I believe that hell exists on the authority of our Lord Christ, not the opinions of the Jews. They got too much wrong for me to pay too much heed to their opinions.

What do the Jews have to do with this discussion?