Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Der Alte]

I agree. If there were sins that were never forgiven, evil wins. If God punishes unrepentant creatures forever, evil wins. But evil only wins because God perpetuates it. On this account, I think conditional mortality has a better position that eternal damnation. At least with conditional mortality, God is not perpetuating the evil that God hates. It's end is final, not eternal. I just don't think God destroys the good that God creates.
"God is not a destroyer of anything that is good. He is the fulfiller. He is the perfecter of nature and never one to overthrow it. His grace will not negate nature but perfect it until it is at its best...Grace does not overcome nature but make it perfect." Meister Eckhart

I can't find a book named "Meister Eckhart" in my Bible.
How does the below passage fit into your beliefs?
When I first heard the UR proof text about the leopard not being able to change his spots, I had to find the context. When I did, I stumbled onto this passage.
How does this passage fit into your beliefs?

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
​

 

[public hermit]

I can't find a book named "Meister Eckhart" in my Bible.

You shouldn't read him, then. I don't think there is a King James version of Eckhart, at any rate. But if you are going to respond to what I am saying, then you know proof texting is not going to cut it. You think a good God will perpetuating evil forever, even though you agree God hates evil. I get it, and we disagree on that point. See, that was easy. Thank you for your service on this Veterans Day, by the by.

 

[Der Alte]

You shouldn't read him, then. I don't think there is a King James version of Eckhart, at any rate. But if you are going to respond to what I am saying, then you know proof texting is not going to cut it. You think a good God will perpetuating evil forever, even though you agree God hates evil. I get it, and we disagree on that point. See, that was easy. Thank you for your service on this Veterans Day, by the by.

You obviously do not know what constitutes "proof texting". It is certainly not 4 contiguous vss.
Where does the Bible say, "A good God will not perpetuate evil forever?"
Here is another passage which says much the same thing as the passage in Jeremiah.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[public hermit]

You obviously do not know what constitutes "proof texting". It is certainly not 4 contiguous vss.
Where does the Bible say, "A good God will not perpetuate evil forever?"
Here is another passage which says much the same thing as the passage in Jeremiah.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

That doesn't entail eternal damnation, as has been discussed a thousand times. You believe in hell. I believe in hell. You have to show that it is eternal and not remedial. You can try to point to the usual texts we all know, but we will disagree over translation. So, yes, please respond to this post in the usual fashion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I appreciate the cordial tenor of your post. It is the least confrontational post I think I have ever viewed.

I appreciate that you can see this, and it's important to me because despite my own occasional expressive outbursts at folks, I really do see the Christian faith as a grand scale "team effort."

I did not post the Gehenna post for the purpose of suggesting that people should fear hell but to document that the Jewish belief in hell existed before and during the time of Jesus.
I am still waiting for a post citing credible, verifiable historical evidence which disproves of my conclusions. In my post Enoch was not the only source cited. I also quoted 8 OT verses and Judith, which is listed in the 225 BC LXX.
Here is the disclaimer posted at the beginning of my post.

….."There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post."​

That's sensible, but I have two things I'm noticing as I read the article on Gehenna: 1) it says, however briefly, "Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell," and following this since it's the case, 2) the article is all over the place with this or that Rabbi's interpretation and/or interpolation from some side tradition.

Although I think it is important to take into account the strange religious sensibilities of the Ancient Jews in their array, I don't think the final interpretive matrix is provided by them nor has the Lord allowed it to reside with them. Of course, as Paul points out, it is they who are the "Receivers of the Oracles." That I won't deny, but I don't think this means that anyone of them (particularly outside of Christian circles) is the final arbiter of the Bible. Moreover, some things we may not be meant to know ...

As for my hermeneutical and exegetical method in approaching a concept like Gehenna (or Hades or whatever), rather than immediately reaching for a Jewish Encyclopedia, I'm probably going to reach for various books on Biblical Hermeneutics/Exegesis and some sources on the Historiography and/or History of Biblical Hermeneutics, first, such as, History of Biblical Interpretation: A Reader - ed. William Yarchin (2004).

If and when I seek to better understand something I read in the Bible, I'd also want to do various studies in Biblical Criticism at the same time dealing with any apparent chronological development in comparative theology we might see expressed between the books and letters of the Bible. Sometimes, concepts might be used a little differently....even among the New Testament writers.

Still, your source on Gehenna has been noted and taken into account. Thanks for that!

 

[Der Alte]

I appreciate that you can see this, and it's important to me because despite my own occasional expressive outbursts at folks, I really do see the Christian faith as a grand scale "team effort."
That's sensible, but I have two things I'm noticing as I read the article on Gehenna: 1) it says, however briefly, "Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell," and following this since it's the case, 2) the article is all over the place with this or that Rabbi's interpretation and/or interpolation from some side tradition.
Although I think it is important to take into account the strange religious sensibilities of the Ancient Jews in their array, I don't think the final interpretive matrix is provided by them nor has the Lord allowed it to reside with them. Of course, as Paul points out, it is they who are the "Receivers of the Oracles." That I won't deny, but I don't think this means that anyone of them (particularly outside of Christian circles) is the final arbiter of the Bible. Moreover, some things we may not be meant to know ...
As for my hermeneutical and exegetical method in approaching a concept like Gehenna (or Hades or whatever), rather than immediately reaching for a Jewish Encyclopedia, I'm probably going to reach for various books on Biblical Hermeneutics/Exegesis and some sources on the Historiography and/or History of Biblical Hermeneutics, first, such as, History of Biblical Interpretation: A Reader - ed. William Yarchin (2004).
If and when I seek to better understand something I read in the Bible, I'd also want to do various studies in Biblical Criticism at the same time dealing with any apparent chronological development in comparative theology we might see expressed between the books and letters of the Bible. Sometimes, concepts might be used a little differently....even among the New Testament writers.
Still, your source on Gehenna has been noted and taken into account. Thanks for that!

You referred to "your source on Gehenna." Actually, I directly quoted 3 non-Biblical sources, with links to each. The Jewish Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
My position remains, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which the Jews called both sheol and Ge hinnom in the OT, Gehinnom and sheol was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades. What Jesus taught about gehenna and hades did not contradict but supported this belief.
And I have in the past and can do again posted archaeological evidence that there never was a trash dump in Gehenna. There was such a trash dump, but it was the next valley over, the Kidron valley.

 

[Blade]

Unless one is going to back this up with the word which was not done.

So here we have a GOD who has always been. There are so many things that happened before this world was created that He is not going to tell us the full story about. It would change nothing. "He's not that sort of guy." That is a truth yet not. Well God is not a man nor does He think like man "“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken and will He not make it good and fulfill it?"

So what we think a GOD should really be like. Want to talk about Christ HELLO YES! But talk about Him after Rev.. not some baby coming back.. this time fire in His eyes. What is written is what will happen. We get no say in this. Our pride will be our undoing... as it is also written. No man will glory in His sight. To also ignore those that came before us scholars that knew Hebrew Greed Ancient Greek and have studied just hell for almost a life time..well carry on

 

[Hmm]

That doesn't entail eternal damnation, as has been discussed a thousand times. You believe in hell. I believe in hell. You have to show that it is eternal and not remedial. You can try to point to the usual texts we all know, but we will disagree over translation. So, yes, please respond to this post in the usual fashion.

I agree, no one believes in God because of knockdown arguments, proof texts or analysis. I think most people first apprehend God in what's around them, the love and kindness of people they encounter, the beauty of nature, the arts, and even science and maths, and they begin to wonder whether these things might not be a reflection of their supreme expression in a personal God.

To me, Christianity reveals the perfectly loving and merciful nature of God and I agree with David Bentley Hart when he says that pretty much everyone who believes in ECT, or who believes that they believe in it, only does so because they think that Christianity requires it. And so they try to ignore the cognitive dissonance of holding the view that God will punish you forever if your faith isn't quite up to it at the point of death while still trying to maintain that God is loving and just. But just like with us, I guess, God can either be a torturer or loving and just. Neither we or He can be both.

 

[Hmm]

To also ignore those that came before us scholars that knew Hebrew Greed Ancient Greek and have studied just hell for almost a life time..well carry on

Thanks, I will do. I would just think, what a waste of a life, and I will discount their opinion, for sure. We choose the scholars we find ourselves agreeing with, I think, and many (most?) don't believe in ECT.

 

[atpollard]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

Hebrews 10:26-31 [ESV]

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

John 3:16-18 [ESV]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.​

It is not for nothing that those that reject the Son have reason to fear the Father ... but that is not for US.

 

[xCarlx]

There is no point arguing about this, ive never seen a person argued from one side to another.

I have contact with a LOT of Christians and one thing that i see more and more is denial of Hell.

The usual reasoning is "God is good therefore Hell makes Him bad", ive also had a person say "I dont worship a God that would create a Hell" but most indirectly imply that a good God wont make a Hell which means if there is a Hell, He cant be good.

I used to argue a lot about this (I believe the bible is clear there is a hell) but it only ends in insult and frustrations.

All i say is, its not a salvation issue....

BUT

If you go around telling the unsaved that God is Love and nothing else, and there is no hell so if you stay fornicating with that pretty lady, or stay hating a person because of their pigment, or stay lying and stealing because it makes you lots of money etc etc etc... then the only consequence is eternal rest in oblivion then you possibly do them a disservice because many people will continue sinning if there is no consequence.

The bible says to ESCAPE THE WRATH OF GOD, and IMO, wrath isnt being denied Heaven and being given eternal sleep instead.

So i say, if you tell the unsaved that there is no consequence AND they continue in their sin because you told them what they want to hear (no consequences) and they die in that state then their blood is on your hands. How that will play out at the Judgement Seat (if you made it), I do not know but i dont think it will be pleasant.

But thats my view, and again, if you want to dent Hell and imply only a bad God would make Hell etc etc then my advice is that you dont go telling that to the lost, you WILL earn their respect they will say you're not like the 'others' but in the long run, it can hurt them and yourself.

Im out.

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK.
That makes them unforgivable.

Sarcasm? Not sure why you say that. But yes, they truly are unforgiveable if they go unpaid for.

 

[Hmm]

There is no point arguing about this, ive never seen a person argued from one side to another.

I have contact with a LOT of Christians and one thing that i see more and more is denial of Hell.

The usual reasoning is "God is good therefore Hell makes Him bad", ive also had a person say "I dont worship a God that would create a Hell" but most indirectly imply that a good God wont make a Hell which means if there is a Hell, He cant be good.

I used to argue a lot about this (I believe the bible is clear there is a hell) but it only ends in insult and frustrations.

All i say is, its not a salvation issue....

BUT

If you go around telling the unsaved that God is Love and nothing else, and there is no hell so if you stay fornicating with that pretty lady, or stay hating a person because of their pigment, or stay lying and stealing because it makes you lots of money etc etc etc... then the only consequence is eternal rest in oblivion then you possibly do them a disservice because many people will continue sinning if there is no consequence.

The bible says to ESCAPE THE WRATH OF GOD, and IMO, wrath isnt being denied Heaven and being given eternal sleep instead.

So i say, if you tell the unsaved that there is no consequence AND they continue in their sin because you told them what they want to hear (no consequences) and they die in that state then their blood is on your hands. How that will play out at the Judgement Seat (if you made it), I do not know but i dont think it will be pleasant.

But thats my view, and again, if you want to dent Hell and imply only a bad God would make Hell etc etc then my advice is that you dont go telling that to the lost, you WILL earn their respect they will say you're not like the 'others' but in the long run, it can hurt them and yourself.

Im out.

I know you said you're out but just to say no one on this thread has said that there is no hell. The difference of opinion is simply over whether hell is eternal and punitive (the infernalist position) or time-limited and corrective in purpose (universalism).

 

[Dan Beane]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

It is a terrible thing to think of hell. That doesn't mean we shouldn't believe in it, since Jesus spoke about it a lot. Consider MT 10:26-28- 26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

No one should fool themselves (Proverbs 1:7) that there is no final justice. Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. Luke 12 helps us understand love - ithout justice there is no love.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. — Luke 12:4-7 KJV

 

[public hermit]

I know you said you're out but just to say no one on this thread has said that there is no hell. The difference of opinion is simply over whether hell is eternal and punitive (the infernalist position) or time-limited and corrective in purpose (universalism).

That is a point you might have to repeat.

 

[Steve11987]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

There has been an argument in the Christian community that those that die without Christ don't spend eternity in hell but are destroyed in hell at some point. That is something I think the Bible indicates and the eternal hell concept was invented by the old Catholic Church for intimidation purposes.

 

[Hmm]

Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I know what you mean, in that verses like this seem pretty conclusive, but I'm not sure they are. I'm not a scholar so I can only pass on what I've read but it seems that scripture sometimes uses "destroys" in a different way than we would think of it. We think of destroying something as smashing it in such a way that it's rendered useless permanently. Its original form has been altered. But sometimes "destroy" is used in the NT to mean refining something, so that the original form is altered to a purified form.

Peter for example speaks of "gold that is being destroyed through fire" when he analogises the proving of faith with the proving of gold. Now obviously gold is not destroyed by fire in the sense of being rendered useless. Rather, its original form - gold ore - is destroyed and the impurities removed so that when the refining process is finished, only pure gold remains. So it is with the proving of our faith through trials.

So God will destroy us in Gehenna in a sense because he will destroy the person we were on earth by refining. So we should "fear" God in the sense that this refining process is likely to be very painful because we'll have to learn many unpleasant truths about ourselves. So it's better to cooperate with God now so that we don't have to experience this, or at least minimise it. That's the universalist view anyway AFAIK and it makes sense, doesn't it? Even now, we often have to endure hardships which in retrospect helped our spiritual development, our purification.

 

[Hmm]

There has been an argument in the Christian community that those that die without Christ don't spend eternity in hell but are destroyed in hell at some point.

I would prefer that but I'd prefer even more to be purified and join all you guys later.

 

[public hermit]

There has been an argument in the Christian community that those that die without Christ don't spend eternity in hell but are destroyed in hell at some point. That is something I think the Bible indicates and the eternal hell concept was invented by the old Catholic Church for intimidation purposes.

I can see why you say that. 2 Peter, in particular, states the wicked are destroyed. Those who hold to an eternal hell will argue that it doesn't mean that, because on Tuesdays they enjoy a little nuance with their interpretation.