Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[public hermit]

Which leaves us further to question: what is some thing called "justice"?

I'm not even sure I know what that is ...

Fortunately for me, everyone else seems to know. And they know exactly.

I don't think justice is a mystery, at all. Justice is anything and everything that works towards life. Justice is achieved when life flourishes, and everything that works against flourishing life is injustice. Sin is injustice because it works against the kind of life for which we are created. Love, by contrast, always works in favor of the divine intention for life. Our Lord died for the sake of justice, for the sake of life. His resurrection is God's justice achieved and the first fruit of neverending, flourishing life.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think justice is a mystery, at all. Justice is anything and everything that works towards life. Justice is achieved when life flourishes, and everything that works against flourishing life is injustice. Sin is injustice because it works against the kind of life for which we are created. Love, by contrast, always works in favor of the divine intention for life. Our Lord died for the sake of justice, for the sake of life. His resurrection is God's justice achieved and the first fruit of neverending, flourishing life.

Says "who"?

 

[Hmm]

Hul if I know. - LOL

Oh the irony...

Lol. I love irony. It's like goldy, except it's made out of iron.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think justice is a mystery, at all. Justice is anything and everything that works towards life. Justice is achieved when life flourishes, and everything that works against flourishing life is injustice. Sin is injustice because it works against the kind of life for which we are created. Love, by contrast, always works in favor of the divine intention for life. Our Lord died for the sake of justice, for the sake of life. His resurrection is God's justice achieved and the first fruit of neverending, flourishing life.

Moreover, in looking back to times past where I've argued here on CF, I see that I haven't really shifted much from my previous stance about the lack of clarity we have regarding "the nature of God's qualities," even from the time before you came onto CF, PH.

Defining God in Theistic Arguments

Of course, as was then and as may be now, I could be wrong, but whenever I see what I think are dogmatic, insular claims such as those that Fundamentalist notions of God express, I find myself reaching for the Skeptic's open door ... and this applies, I think, to some "thingie bopper" some folks like to call "Divine Justice." I'm just at pains to reach an Absolute point in definition for it all, what with referents just dashing here, there and yonder, all over the place within the mind of some one denominational leader here or that denominational leader....over there.

So yeah, I really hate to be the class clown, but I am the one who is going to pull the rug out from everyone where so-called "justice" is concerned. And I think a bit of Tarski allows me that privilege somewhere in the mix.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

What does it say about me if I admit that my own fear of Hell has been somewhat dimunitive in nature, ever since I first picked up a New Testament back in 1986? I'm not even a Universalist and I've never really had a fear of Hell.

Fear of Death, yes, but Hell? No!

 

[Mark Quayle]

They should be infinite sins?

"Should"?

I think they ARE infinite sins, since they are committed against infinite God.

 

[public hermit]

Says "who"?

I said "I don't think..." Those are key words that indicate me sharing my thoughts. Take them or leave them, but your worries about dogmatism don't apply.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I said "I don't think..." Those are key words that indicate me sharing my thoughts. Take them or leave them, but your worries about dogmatism don't apply.

Ok. I understand. Just realize that sometimes....it doesn't sound like you're merely "sharing your thoughts." Sometimes, you sound rather confident, PH, and where I sense confidence, I sometimes [mistakingly?] take it that another person is solidly convinced of some said "Concept X," especially where justice is concerned these days.

Or maybe I've just been watching too many Gen Z atheist channels lately and it's all starting to sound alike to me ...

 

[Hmm]

What does it say about me if I admit that my own fear of Hell has been somewhat dimunitive in nature, ever since I first picked up a New Testament back in 1986? I'm not even a Universalist and I've never really had a fear of Hell.

Fear of Death, yes, but Hell? No!

It says that you're lucky, like me. I've never had a fear of hell too, any more than I've had a fear of dryad's in trees, because I've never believed in it. But many people do.

 

[public hermit]

Ok. I understand. Just realize that sometimes....it doesn't sound like you're merely "sharing your thoughts." Sometimes, you sound rather confident, PH, and where I sense confidence, I sometimes [mistakingly?] take it that another person is solidly convinced of some said "Concept X," especially where justice is concerned these days.

Or maybe I've just been watching too many Gen Z atheist channels lately and it's all starting to sound alike to me ...

I could be wrong, but that is how I understand justice. For me, justice is ultimately about life and what works in favor of it and what works against it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sounds like a perversion of "justice".
Basically an apologetic to justify eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape while blaming the victims.

I thought God was in the business of restoration and mercy.

The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)

God is in the business of demonstrating his glory, and during this temporal envelope, in large part through justice and love —both of which we are more than capable of not recognizing as such.

You say, "The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)"

You may notice I never represent the Gospel that way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"Should"?

I think they ARE infinite sins, since they are committed against infinite God.

Infinite sin may be a misnomer, Mark. Maybe just a tad? It's probably better to just say, "We have a case where, it seems that humanity, in its sin, has deigned to set itself against an Eternal, Holy, Just, Merciful and Loving God."

And then we attempt to sift through that miasma for some sort of substantial meaning ...

 

[Hmm]

I think they ARE infinite sins, since they are committed against infinite God.

This reminds me of the lese-majeste law in Thailand, which is the crime of saying anything even slightly negative against the royal family, the great idea being that they are of infinite worth and everyone else is nothing in comparison. Jesus, however, was the servant King and so this rule doesn't apply.

 

[Hmm]

You may notice I never represent the Gospel

Yes, I have noticed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I could be wrong, but that is how I understand justice. For me, justice is ultimately about life and what works in favor of it and what works against it.

Life is indeed a good thing, especially one in which we all can flourish. I can't blame you for wanting to start with that!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God is in the business of demonstrating his glory, and during this temporal envelope, in large part through justice and love —both of which we are more than capable of not recognizing as such.

You say, "The gospel of hell:
"Accept the free gift of salvation today. Or, if you prefer, you will be incinerated." (spiritual extortion)"

You may notice I never represent the Gospel that way.

Mark, if it was really that 'easy' to recognize something we like to conceive of as "God's justice," wouldn't everyone be falling all over each other with profuse hugs and kisses rather than clinching their red fists at each other in the name of "fairness" for the last, oh what, 5,000 years?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It says that you're lucky, like me. I've never had a fear of hell too, any more than I've had a fear of dryad's in trees, because I've never believed in it. But many people do.

I guess I am lucky like that. Plus one, then, for growing up in a more or less 'liberal' and not very religious family......(?)(?)(?)

I guess.

 

[Hmm]

I guess I am lucky like that. Plus one, then, for growing up in a more or less 'liberal' and not very religious family......(?)(?)(?)

I guess.

I'd say so. You had no de-programming to do, which can be a life-long project.

 

[public hermit]

I'd say so. You had no de-programming to do, which can be a life-long project.

I agree that it can be to one's advantage to not have been brought up in the faith. So many people are "deconstructing," which seems to be the popular catchphrase, and I have noticed they sometimes end up with something unrecognizable as Christian faith. It's a shame, imo, but I also don't blame them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree that it can be to one's advantage to not have been brought up in the faith. So many people are "deconstructing," which seems to be the popular catchphrase, and I have noticed they sometimes end up with something unrecognizable as Christian faith. It's a shame, imo, but I also don't blame them.

Yes, you're right, PH.

For my part, I am lucky that I haven't had to deconstruct (oh, I abhor that word since I think it's a bit abstruse and doesn't necessarily indicate that Critical Thinking or scholarly consideration has been placed into effect within one's mind; and it doesn't tell us how well a perosn is sifting through the wreckage and carnage of his former faith).

And at least I have something that resembles Christian faith, and I'll take anyone to task who thinks they'll aver otherwise.

But there are those fellow Christians who think that somehow I'm supposed to lean epistemically toward Aquinas or Descartes, Foundationally speaking, while ignoring the likes of Pascal.