Losing faith in "faith alone"

[Blood Bought 1953]

I am starting to lose faith in it too. If we are all saved simply by faith, then we really do not have an incentive to be decent people at all. We would already have our one way ticket to Heaven and can use it as a license to sin since we're already saved no matter what.

Why help the poor? We're already going to Heaven. Why not start a war with a third world country? We're saved! Why do anything at all that requires sacrifice? My faith is already good enough!

Without reward or punishment, there would be no incentive or accountability for our actions.

Unless I'm missing something here, I'm losing faith in this whole protestant excuse to play by the world's rules when it comes to finding success.

I found out the incentive is Love.....in the end, that’s what all this is about

 

[zoidar]

So how much work or which work does it take to save a person?

How does a person know he's done enough to get him over the bar?

Do bad deeds subtract from good deeds?

Well said. I do ask the very same question often and never get an answer.

It's the works quantification question as you put it more clearly.

The only religion I know of with scales of justice on judgment day is Islam.

There is no such thing as doing enough or too little good works to be saved. You can ask the same thing about faith, how much do you have to believe to get over the bar?

What you need to be saved is a relationship with Christ, and to have that relationship you need to bear fruit, you need works. If you don't have works, you don't have a relationship with Christ. To be in a relationship with Christ is living in obedience, to do what he says. When you fail in obedience you ask for forgiveness, that is part of the relationship. So you are not saved by any special amount of works, but through the obedience/love/faith relationship with Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Considering Paul was speaking to Gentiles I think you are incorrect.

Eph 2
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

"No one" believes we reach salvation by works. Paul writes :"It's a gift of God, not as a result of works". Salvation is not a result of works, but when when we are saved we are to do good works. "that we would walk in them." That means we are to walk in the light, in the good works God has prepared and not fall back to sin. So what Paul says has nothing to with that we don't need works to be saved. If we fall back to living in sin, the we are cut off the vine, like Jesus says.

 

[discipler7]

Well, I am not denying there are exceptions to the rule. But I was not talking about exceptions to the rule. Nor was I talking about those who place their trust in Jesus before they shortly die. Obviously James was not talking about death bed confessions or the thief on the cross. However, if the thief did not die, he would have had to live out his faith by displaying works (Thereby showing that the Lord lives inside of Him).

Not actually true.

1CORINTHIANS.5: = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
.

The above Corinthian/Gentile Christian incest-sinner could have turned out to be like JOB, who kept the faith throughout his suffering ordeal or near-death experience and was eventually saved. In comparison, his wife had likely lost faith and salvation - JOB.2:9.

 

[discipler7]

Okay. You are confused as to what I believe. Deuteronomy 28 is for Israel. Granted, we can use certain aspects of the Old Law because they have been repeated in the New Testament, but we do not go back to seeking to obey the laws that only applied to Israel. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands (given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers).

Not actually true.

HEBREWS.8: = 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

[discipler7]

So in one sense, Paul is saying that it is true we are not saved by works. But in another way, James is saying we are saved by works.

Quite confusing. Which is which.? Saved by faith or saved by works.?

Today, the Jews still "falsely" think that they will be saved from hell when they die by believing in God/YHWH and keeping His Law or Moses Law. Similarly for today's Muslims, ie by believing in Allah and keeping Muhammad Law or Sharia Law.
....... Atheists "falsely" believe they will just die and return to dust or become nothing. Buddhists "falsely" believe they will die and be reincarnated/reborn according to their meritorious deeds until they reach nirvana/enlightenment.

Christians "truly" think that they will be saved from hell when they die by believing in God, who is also Jesus Christ(= God-in-the-flesh) or the Word and the Spirit(= God-in-the-Spirit) - JOHN.1:1 & 14, 1TIMOTHY.3:16, JOHN.6:63, 2COR.3:17.

There is a stark difference between the objective faith of the Jews and Christians wrt the way to heaven or salvation, ie the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah, was God-in-the-flesh and was the only way to heaven or salvation - cf; JOHN.14:6. The Jews thought that they were going to heaven by believing in God/YHWH and keeping Moses Law, which was only true Before Christ, ie no longer true After Christ.(LUKE.16:19-31, MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6)

Paul and James were at loggerheads. James, the "biological" brother of Jesus Christ was the bishop of Jerusalem and the leader of the Judaizers, a group of Jewish Christians, who had demanded that new Gentile Christians converted by apostle Paul(= ACTS.9:15) be required to also keep Moses Law, eg be circumcised. Paul responded by saying that this burdensome requirement was not necessary as salvation was based solely on faith in Jesus Christ(eg JOHN.3:16) and not on the works of the Law - GALATIANS.2:9-17.
....... Luckily, this controversy was resolved in Paul's favor at ACTS.15:24-29, ie Gentile Christians were not required to keep all of Moses Law. They only have to keep the non-burdensome parts of Moses Law, with the understanding that doing so would only give them a better and longer life on earth. The gift of salvation or the kingdom of heaven when they die comes solely through faith in Jesus Christ.

IOW, Gentile Christians unburdenly keep the Law, in order to be blessed by God with earthly goodness and not in order to be saved from hell when they leave this earth or die.(cf; 1COR.5:5, LUKE.23:43)
....... The Book of James implies that Christians have to do the works of the Law, in order to be saved from hell.

If, for whatever reasons, an ignorant Christian go and break the Law or sin, eg commit murder, adultery, rape, stealing, cheating/lying, sorcery, idolatry, blasphemy, etc, he/she will then suffer the curses/punishments of God or His agents. While in suffering, eg cancer, imprisonment, etc, he/she may lose faith in Jesus Christ/God = may curse God/Jesus and die = lose his/her salvation. Why take the risk.? (cf; MATTHEW.19:16-23, 1COR.6:9-11)

 

[FenderTL5]

The reformers really did a disservice by adding the word "alone" to a litany of items didn't they?

 

[JoeP222w]

I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

When was Abraham command to sacrifice Isaac? Genesis chapter 22.

When was Abraham consider righteous? Genesis chapter 15.

Genesis 15 comes before Genesis 22.

So you see that Abraham's faith credited him as righteous before he had done any works. Abraham's work pour out from his faith in God.

Works are an outpouring of faith, they are not a pre-requisite to faith nor do they work along with faith to make one righteous before God. Works are the product of faith.

The book of James is not saying that we are justified by our works, but by faith. That faith is demonstrated by our works, a visible sign of faith in God. Good works are post justification. And if you have no works then how can you say you have faith.

Never read a Bible verse in isolation. A verse without the context is a pretext for all sorts of false teachings.

 

[JoeP222w]

If we are all saved simply by faith, then we really do not have an incentive to be decent people at all.

The incentive comes from a love of God and a love for fellow man, that comes from a heart transformed by the grace of God. And also a desire, through faith, that seeks to be obedient to God.

Why help the poor? We're already going to Heaven.

This implies that helping the poor allows you to enter Heaven. That is not the gospel message.

 

[redleghunter]

"No one" believes we reach salvation by works

If this is truly the case why does your church teach purgatory.

If we fall back to living in sin, the we are cut off the vine, like Jesus says.

Salvation is not by works, but you can lose your salvation by works?

That is akin to a car rental place taking a reservation vs holding the reservation?

 

[Isocoma]

I just love reading quotes. Have a blessed day to all

 

[redleghunter]

The reformers really did a disservice by adding the word "alone" to a litany of items didn't they?

Blame Chrysostom perhaps Basil too:

Faith Alone Early Fathers

 

[112358]

Here is a question I have posed elsewhere that has not yet been addressed:

Why are all commandments found in the New Testament, with the exception of belief, considered "works", but belief is not? Is believing not submitting to the command that we believe? Why then is belief considered the only requirement for salvation, when it appears together with other commands (i.e. "He who believes and is baptized")?

Is it your obedience to the command to believe that saves you, or is it the power behind the belief, which is the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God?

I cannot understand how one arrives at the conclusion that belief is a requirement, but the other commands found right there next to "believe" are not also requirements. Can someone please explain this hypocrisy to me?

 

[Danthemailman]

I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

*In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works" He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness. You will know them by their fruits.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

*So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Isocoma]

Human nature is not evil? If that is so, why did Jesus bother to come?

No, friend, we need to be born again, BECAUSE the flesh is carnal - bad. Flesh being our human nature since Adam sinned.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

i do agree.

 

[Danthemailman]

I have not lost faith IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

I cannot understand how one arrives at the conclusion that belief is a requirement, but the other commands found right there next to "believe" are not also requirements. Can someone please explain this hypocrisy to me?

Please explain your use of "requirements" above.

 

[112358]

Please explain your use of "requirements" above.

Happily. We are told by the doctrine of "Faith alone plus nothing" or "Grace alone plus nothing" that we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. That establishes belief as a requirement, something we must do, in order to receive salvation. Yet at the same time we are told that when we yield to the command, "believe", that is not something we must do, because things which we must do are "works", and we are not saved by "works". Which is it? Is belief something we must do or not?

 

[twin.spin]

Obviously.

Nonsense.

That's all well and good, but our Lord Jesus does not teach Sola Fide. Here is what our Lord Jesus said: ….

Only he did:

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

John 3:14-16
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
that everyone who believes may have eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.​

John 6:40
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”​

 

[Randy777]

I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Hebrews 11 gives examples of those who acted on their faith. None of them were by law or a works based righteousness. By faith David challenged Goliath and His hope was in God for that victory. That said it is always lawful to do good. But your hope should be in the grace of God poured out through Christ Jesus. A righteousness that is from first to last credited by faith in Christ Jesus.