Losing faith in "faith alone"

[redleghunter]

It is not hypothetical.
David lost his salvation the moment he sinned.

I think the point was missed. God did not let his servant David perish.

The story of David is not about one day saved, sin, unsaved, back to saved again. That's not the story. The story tells us David as God's chosen King was (1)delivered and (2) God chastised him.

The overall teaching is deliverance and we reap what we sow.

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)
This verse speaks of those who hate their brothers is a murderer. Add everyone on the planet at some point in their lives. Our very own thoughts condemn us. If you want to apply this universally in the Bible then add Moses and Paul to the list. They did more than hate but murdered other people.

One, Moses was chosen by God to deliver His people and handed him the Law.

Another, Paul, murdered, imprisoned and persecuted Christ's church.

Yet God confronted these murderers and chose them for His work.

Again the story here is not "list it or lose it salvation" but salvation by Grace Alone.

The Bible is a book full of sinners saved by Grace.

Another poster "Love of Truth" covered this topic really well with Scripture. So I am not going to try and out do what he did. You can check out his case that Judas was once saved and then he lost it here:

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Son of perdition and to fulfill the scriptures tells us different.

Okay. To begin, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come through. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).

Ok you isolated Romans 9 but what about all the passages in Isaiah and Ephesians 1? John 6? All of them demonstrated God chooses or elects. If you want to ask why God does this, then the verses speaking of the lump of clay contending with Almighty come to mind.

On Romans 9, your point is it is not speaking of individuals. But it is. Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the Roman church. He's telling them in Romans 11, they were grafted in as wild olive branches as some of the unbelieving natural branches were cut off. The main warning here was not to boast when we have favor from God but to boast in Christ and His work, not our own.

The overall point of citing Romans 9 was to demonstrate whether nations, patriarchs or individuals, God chooses and is Sovereign. He chose people who were of 'good' character as Noah, Abraham, Mary, Cornelius and others; and He chose people who murdered as in Moses, David and Paul. All of the above were according to His Grace.

God even chose Pharoah but to harden his heart so He could show the signs and wonders He performed for Israel.

You cannot betray someone if you were never loyal to them.

What loyalty did Judas show?

Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it. (John 12:6)

 

[Kenny'sID]

How does one “rip it completely out of proportion”?

My two prior posts explain that in detail, It's in the different stages (one thing leads to another comments) I mentioned.

What is your understanding of sin?

If you arean't aware what sin is by now, you choose not to be.

Sorry, I’m not following.

No idea how to make it any clearer.

There is not a ranking system for sin in the Bible, sorry. And Jesus was absolutely clear about how serious all sin is, as are other Scriptures. Many don’t understand that, and so they believe they are better than others.

The lists of sins I mentioned shows the sins that are ranked high on the list of no no's, there are several of them, and they will keep one from entering the Kingdom of Heaven where lessor sins aren't mentioned. So not sure what you mean by "ranking system" but they are flat out stated in those lists, as are the penalties for living in that sin. They are impossible to miss if one reads their bible, unless they just don't wan to see them..

Again, there is no ranking system for sin to be found in Scripture. Jesus plainly taught that hate is as murder and lust as adultery. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful, our flesh is carnal, as Paul wrote “sold under sin”. What “minimizes” sin is when some say things like, “I’m only guilty of little sins, not like that person over there.” That is a minimization of sin.

Scripture is clear, if you offend in one point you offend in all. Unless one has kept the Law perfectly from birth to death, in thought, word and deed, they had best not think to boast in their flesh before the Lord or believe that they are somehow “righteous”. Remember what Scripture says regarding “going about to establish our own righteousness”. (Doing so means we are ignorant of the righteousness of God).

As I just said, there are sins ranked worse than others, and you can't have missed them unless you chose to.

I’ve seen plenty of people who seem to believe they’re better than others and that their “righteousness” and good works are worthy of saving them. It’s heartbreaking. The only sacrifice God has accepted to save us is that of His Son. It’s a frightening thing to think to add anything of our own obedience to the perfect obedience of Christ, to mix grace and works.

Yep, heard that one before...eople that try to do right being accused of being better than others...and I have to wonder if the attempt to demean has ever changed anyone view, or if they all see right through it?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Meaning we should pray to Him when we are employing the very resources He blessed us with by His common grace.

I pray his will be done and then go on about my business...what else can we do..

I've seen little of that.

Not a lot of folks go that route but it happens often enough.

I've seen little of that. What I've seen is posters accuse others of doing so. Amounting to mind reading.

I've seen them flat out say all sin is ok as far as getting to heaven goes, or even go so far to say there is no such thing as sin for the believer, there was a recent thread claiming that. And I've seen some of these things more than once, so even if I could read minds, i don't have to..

 

[discipler7]

HEBREWS.12:2 = 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,

.

Yes Jesus is the Author and Finisher.

You missed out something very important.

Wrt salvation, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, not of our works or obedience, ...even though the latter is important for sanctification.

Salvation by faith in Christ applies to this present life and eternal life.
Sanctification by good works only applies to this present life or what remains of it after belief/conversion.
....... After the resurrection/rapture and in the eternal kingdom of heaven, there will be no more need for sanctification or cleansing of the flesh.

 

[discipler7]

I think you got the idea that if you believe in faith + works you trust in works. I believe in faith + works, yet i trust in the cross for my salvation.

That's unscriptural and a corruption of the gospel of Christ.

EPHESIANS.2:8-9 = 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[discipler7]

Some believe all we need is faith AND NOTHING ELSE.
Jesus NEVER said this and is not what He taught.

JOHN.3:16 = For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

HEBREWS.12: = The Race of Faith
12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2THESS.1: = 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

EPHESIANS.2:8-9 = 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Good works are derived from faith. Faith is not derived from good works.

 

[zoidar]

I understand. I’ve posted endlessly regarding my perspective and I have never once said don’t obey Jesus or trust that He is Lord.

In any case, if anyone wishes to know what I truly believe, they are more than able to read my posts.

God bless.

I know you are saying we are to obey Jesus, we are to do works. You also say that even we are to do this it has nothing to do with salvation, only to do with discipleship. And I believe you are also saying that if you hold on to "faith only", then you will do works out of love but not because you have to do works.

For some people I think this works out fine, they believe in "trust only" and they love Jesus, and they are obedient. But there are some, I would even say many, that is of this belief, and don't serve God, don't have a discipleship with God. What I also seen among "faith only people", that they often seem reduce the importance of works, and not only that, they are also saying that they have a discipleship, even they don't, since they aren't obedient. They are also lowering the bar of what obedience is, meaning we often are obedient and doing works without knowing about it. I have even heard things like: "I don't see any fruit in my life, but I know there is fruit even I don't see it, since I have faith."

So to help those people I believe we have to tell them that salvation is about having Jesus as Lord, and being obedient.

 

[discipler7]

We don't know if Anaias and Sapphira lost their salvation. We do know they lost their lives for lying.

Fyi, ...
1CORINTHIANS.5:4-5 = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sins/evil-works/evil-deeds/ /law-breaking/disobedience can have deadly consequences.

 

[discipler7]

The proof that David lost his salvation during the time he committed his sins is revealed in Scripture:

John says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

1JOHN.3:15 = 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

MATTHEW.5: = Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Actually, Jesus Christ and John both say that even those who hate or angry at others in their hearts are bound for hell(= no eternal life), not just those who commit murder.(= break or disobey Moses Law)
....... This includes you and me and other haters-in-the-heart = we are also bound for hell. That is why we need a Saviour.

It is in error to use the above Scripture to judge that David lost his salvation because he committed murder.

 

[discipler7]

I am not sure how your highlighting of these verses disprove my point about how Romans 11:22 says "if we do not continue in his goodness we will be cut off."

Please explain.

Thank you.

ROMANS.11:20 = 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

2THESS.1:11 = His goodness and the work of faith
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Gentile Christians are grafted into the natural olive tree by faith(= stand by faith). If Gentile Christians are to be cut off from the natural olive tree, it will be by falling from faith.

His goodness means God also saving the Gentiles by faith, and not just the Jews only. Continuing in His goodness is by faith. Not continuing in His goodness is by unbelief or falling from faith. Good works is also by faith.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4, Galatians 3, and Titus 3:5 are in reference to Works Alone Salvationism (that would include going back to the Old Law) (without God's grace) and it is not talking about how we are saved by God's grace + good works (that are a part of our faith and or a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers).

Paul never once spoke badly of the commands given to us by Jesus as a part of having eternal life. Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Paul would have to agree with this statement. For Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine that is according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

Anyways, James 2:24 says point blank the following,

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

James says in this verse above that by works is a man justified and not faith only (i.e. by faith alone). That is because James says that he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). That is because James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone? Surely not. For the devils also believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Paul and James and ALL the N.T. writers agreed with Jesus, of course!

Some like Paul more because he spoke of grace and it might SEEM different than what Jesus taught, but actually it's exactly the same.

Romans 13:8-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
2 Corinthians 13:5-7, 10
Galatians 5:17-21
Ephesians 5:1-14

In every writing of the N.T. Paul exhorts us to be imitators of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace101]

JOHN.3:16 = For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

HEBREWS.12: = The Race of Faith
12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2THESS.1: = 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

EPHESIANS.2:8-9 = 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Good works are derived from faith. Faith is not derived from good works.

1. What does BELIEVE mean? We really all should know this.
It would be very helpful in understanding the N.T.

2. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, IF we allow Him to be. I don't remember my free will being taken away after salvation. Maybe you have some verses regarding this?

3. Are you able to explain the difference between:
Works of the law
Works of faith
OR
Obedience to the law
Obedience of faith

4. Good works are derived from faith. Whoever said otherwise? No one on this thread or any other.
But they ARE NECESSARY, are they not??

 

[discipler7]

HEBREWS.11 & 12 =
Faith at the Dawn of History
11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, ...

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. ...

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The Race of Faith
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Before Christ, salvation is by faith in God/Christ, and not by works or obedience.(see 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6)
During and after Christ, salvation is also by faith in Christ/God, and not by works.(see EPHESIANS.2:8-9)

Salvation by faith+works is not very different from salvation by works because both require works to be saved. Both are unscriptural and in error.

Nevertheless, faith does produces works but salvation is not by works or faith+works. Salvation is by faith alone.

Faith also produces love, peace and joy. Is it faith that saves or love+peace+joy that saves or faith+love+peace+joy that saves.?

Adding conditions/necessities/requirements to "salvation by faith-in-Christ" is to corrupt the faith and the gospel of Christ, eg salvation by faith+water baptism, by faith+Holy Communion, etc.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

HEBREWS.11: =
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. ...

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
_ _ _ _ _ _

You please God with faith, not with works or faith+works.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Do you work your way into heaven or believe+work your way into heaven or believe your way into heaven.? ...

JOHN.14: = The Way, the Truth, and the Life
14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

4. Good works are derived from faith. Whoever said otherwise? No one on this thread or any other.
But they ARE NECESSARY, are they not??

See above.

Define faith.(HEBREWS.11) Define good works. Good works is not faith. Faith is not good works.

 

[Hammster]

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Closed. Too much flaming.


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