Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[truefiction1]

What does that have anything to do with Communion? These are all part of the Noahide laws for gentiles.
Do not murder, don't eat a live animal, do not participate in sexual sins, etc...

It has everything to do with the current discussion regarding whether it is lawful to use wine in Communion. We say it is, because Christ commanded us to use it. These others, however, say that it is not lawful to use wine because according to their Scriptural studies, its use in Jewish religious ceremonies was strictly forbidden. The drinking of any blood is strictly forbidden also. Yet Christ commands us to drink His blood. So what commandments do we observe? That of the heretical believers whose consciences are so weak that they can neither bring themselves to consume the fermented wine and blood of Communion? or the Commandments of Christ?

A weak conscience says "we must not drink any alcohol or drink any blood because God's law forbids it". So they (with whom we are now conversing) drink only grape juice and refuse to believe that it is really the blood of Christ. We on the other hand, drink alcoholic wine and believe that it is really the blood of Christ, because we know that He gave his disciples alcoholic wine and commanded them to drink it because it is indeed His blood.

 

[daniel_B_0506]

I think we should start off in clarifying the wedding at cana miracle. It was not mere grape juice, why would the party goers be upset at having good wine last? At Jewish weddings they would start with the good wine (while sober) so that by the time they were intoxicated, they could not taste the difference between good and bad wine. This is why saving the best for last upset them the way it did. This is more than enough evidence to suggest it was indeed alcoholic wine. In reference to above statements regarding alcoholics: one man's weakness is not another's. If your brother is weak around alcohol do not have it around them; this is stated in 1 Corinthians 8:13

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It has everything to do with the current discussion regarding whether it is lawful to use wine in Communion. We say it is, because Christ commanded us to use it. These others, however, say that it is not lawful to use wine because according to their Scriptural studies, its use in Jewish religious ceremonies was strictly forbidden. The drinking of any blood is strictly forbidden also. Yet Christ commands us to drink His blood. So what commandments do we observe? That of the heretical believers whose consciences are so weak that they can neither bring themselves to consume the fermented wine and blood of Communion? or the Commandments of Christ?

Again, they have NOTHING to do with each other...YOU have made the connection. The Council ruling was for gentiles who want to enter the Church, not if wine was to be used in Communion or not. The rulings were based on the 7 Noahide laws for gentiles...period. The fruit of the vine was just that, wine or grape juice.

 

[mmksparbud]

I suggest you do more research.

At now 66, I have researched and researched, and I am sure, I will continue to do so. It's like housework---never ends.

 

[truefiction1]

Again, they have NOTHING to do with each other...YOU have made the connection. The Council ruling was for gentiles who want to enter the Church, not if wine was to be used in Communion or not. The rulings were based on the 7 Noahide laws for gentiles...period. The fruit of the vine was just that, wine or grape juice.

I've only connected the prohibitions against religious use of wine and the drinking of any blood because those who oppose these aspects of the Church Sacrament always make those connections in their arguments. No offense, but I don't feel as though you are aware of the full scope of the discussion I'm having with those posters who are against the use of wine and the doctrine of the real presence in the Eucharist. If you were, you would know where I'm coming from and wouldn't have to ask "what does that have anything to do with Communion?"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Read the original Greek...you are wrong

Hebrew and Greek is only defined by what Lexicon or scholar one prefers to hear or listen to. How does one really know they are correct in their Hebrew and Greek interpretation? Has anyone today grew up speaking and writing Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek? Surely not. Usually folks go the Hebrew and Greek with pre-conceived ideas or beliefs trying to justify what they already believe. The English is translated from the Hebrew and Greek so there should be no conflict in what the English says in the original languages. In other words, we can trust and believe what our Bibles say in the English. For we did not repent hearing the Hebrew and Greek. We do not sit down and just read our Bibles in Hebrew and Greek.

 

[mmksparbud]

It has everything to do with the current discussion regarding whether it is lawful to use wine in Communion. We say it is, because Christ commanded us to use it. These others, however, say that it is not lawful to use wine because according to their Scriptural studies, its use in Jewish religious ceremonies was strictly forbidden. The drinking of any blood is strictly forbidden also. Yet Christ commands us to drink His blood. So what commandments do we observe? That of the heretical believers whose consciences are so weak that they can neither bring themselves to consume the fermented wine and blood of Communion? or the Commandments of Christ?

A weak conscience says "we must not drink any alcohol or drink any blood because God's law forbids it". So they (with whom we are now conversing) drink only grape juice and refuse to believe that it is really the blood of Christ. We on the other hand, drink alcoholic wine and believe that it is really the blood of Christ, because we know that He gave his disciples alcoholic wine and commanded them to drink it because it is indeed His blood.

It is in the translation of what Jesus said that seems to rile everybody. He never said to use fermented wine--He picked up the cup and said to drink for this was His blood. Question is---what did He drink. It doesn't matter what tradition or anyone else thinks, it is what did Jesus do and say to do.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

It is considered to be grapes that He meant by the fruit of the vine. It doesn't say fermented and He took a vow to not drink of it again until He drinks it with us in the new kingdom.
​

I will not belittle anyone by calling them heretical because they do not do as I do, even if it goes against what Jesus said. I am no one's judge. According to Jewish tradition and Jewish law Jesus drank unfermented wine at the Passover or He would not have been able to pray. The bread also had to be unleavened. No yeast was allowed in the whole house--though you can not remove the yeast that naturally occurs in the air, there was to be no added yeast.

Exo_12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
Exo_12:20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.

It is not up to me to dictate to anyone what their church should do. God always forbade the consumption of blood, and the NT directions also do so.
Act_15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act_15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The wine received in Communion is REALLY, TRULY the blood of Christ. It is not harmful to either the body or soul of the recipient unless they receive it without "discerning the body and blood of Christ". Your concern with the alcoholic content of wine in Communion might be due to such a lack of discernment on your part. Do you believe that the "sanctified" contents of the chalice of which Orthodox Christians partake during Liturgy is indeed Christ's flesh and indeed His blood?

So can we hook up scientific equipment to prove that this happens?
Or does it only work when nobody is looking?

FYI, in Orthodox Communion only very small amounts are consumed by the faithful, no more than one time per day (less than half a teaspoon usually). Also, wine in small amounts is not bad for us. In small quantities it is actually good for us in its nutritional value.

However, what if an ex alcoholic who struggled with alcohol was thrown back into alcoholism because of such a service? What should the elders of the church think, say or do in this case? Also, most wines does not have any nutritional value. Why do you think there is no nutrition label on most bottles of wine? Alcohol is a poison and it seeks to dry things out. Why else do you think people get drunk off of it? Because it is too healthy for them? Actually there is a scientific study done that says that alcohol consumption even in moderate amounts actually shrinks the brain.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Where does it say that? It is not in the original Greek text...

Actually, it does. Go to any interlinear Bible and you can read it for yourself if you know Greek. I had heard about it so went and looked, and sure enough, they were right.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I've only connected the prohibitions against religious use of wine and the drinking of any blood because those who oppose these aspects of the Church Sacrament always make those connections in their arguments. No offense, but I don't feel as though you are aware of the full scope of the discussion I'm having with those posters who are against the use of wine and the doctrine of the real presence in the Eucharist. If you were, you would know where I'm coming from and wouldn't have to ask "what does that have anything to do with Communion?"

No, I fully understand the discussion, I disagree with both of you. The prohibitions were from the Noahide laws. They have absolutely nothing to do with Communion. I disagree with them, wine may be used for Communion. He never said wine or grape juice...He said "fruit of the vine". It says specifically "wine" (οἶνον) in the story of the marriage in Cana in Greek.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Actually, it does. Go to any interlinear Bible and you can read it for yourself if you know Greek. I had heard about it so went and looked, and sure enough, they were right.

I did and it doesn't...

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is not interesting, it is wrong...scripturally. We KNOW He rose on the 1st day of the week (Sunday), not on Shabbat at 3 PM. He rose anytime AFTER sunset (which would be Sunday). ALL Scripture says this.

friend, I sure wish you would back up your statements with a text so I wouldn't have to go searching so hard. I keep an open mind and am willing to discover truth, but it must be scripture, and in context. That is my foundation, not just because someone makes a statement with no proof text. Understand???

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is in the translation of what Jesus said that seems to rile everybody. He never said to use fermented wine--He picked up the cup and said to drink for this was His blood. Question is---what did He drink. It doesn't matter what tradition or anyone else thinks, it is what did Jesus do and say to do.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

It is considered to be grapes that He meant by the fruit of the vine. It doesn't say fermented and He took a vow to not drink of it again until He drinks it with us in the new kingdom.
​

I will not belittle anyone by calling them heretical because they do not do as I do, even if it goes against what Jesus said. I am no one's judge. According to Jewish tradition and Jewish law Jesus drank unfermented wine at the Passover or He would not have been able to pray. The bread also had to be unleavened. No yeast was allowed in the whole house--though you can not remove the yeast that naturally occurs in the air, there was to be no added yeast.

Exo_12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
Exo_12:20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.

Then you should know he said "bread" (arton in Greek) and "fruit of the vine" (which could be either grape juice OR wine). It was NOT a seder...you are wrong.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

friend, I sure wish you would back up your statements with a text so I wouldn't have to go searching so hard. I keep an open mind and am willing to discover truth, but it must be scripture, and in context. That is my foundation, not just because someone makes a statement with no proof text. Understand???

I have already provided Scripture previously...Find me ONE scripture that says He raised on Shabbat...

 

[1stcenturylady]

I did and it doesn't...

I don't have a way to post in Greek or I would show you in black and white. The best I can do is show you with English letters.

sabbath - oaBBaoiv
a sabbath - oaBBarw
of (the) sabbaths - oaBBarwv
one of (the) sabbaths - uiav oaBBarwv

Because that Sunday was First Fruits, it also was a "sabbath."

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't have a way to post in Greek or I would show you in black and white. The best I can do is show you with English letters.

sabbath - oaBBaoiv
a sabbath - oaBBarw
of (the) sabbaths - oaBBarwv
one of (the) sabbaths - uiav oaBBarwv

Because that Sunday was First Fruits, it also was a "sabbath."

It is not a Sabbath. I don't understand the rest. What verse are you referring to?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I've only connected the prohibitions against religious use of wine and the drinking of any blood because those who oppose these aspects of the Church Sacrament always make those connections in their arguments. No offense, but I don't feel as though you are aware of the full scope of the discussion I'm having with those posters who are against the use of wine and the doctrine of the real presence in the Eucharist. If you were, you would know where I'm coming from and wouldn't have to ask "what does that have anything to do with Communion?"

The teaching of the Orthodox Church is that we do not consume blood as set out in the Apostolic council of Jerusalem:

Apostolic Canon 63: If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the sacerdotal list at all, eat meat in the blood of its soul, or that has been killed by a wild beast, or that has died a natural death, let him be deposed. For the Law has forbidden this. But if any layman do the same, let him be excommunicated.

Theodoret of Cyrus says: you should not eat blood, wherefore it is the soul of the animal

St Chrysostom says: you should not eat blood, because it was devoted only to God. Also because God wanted to prevent people not to spill human blood, for it commands neither to eat animal blood so as not thus litle-by-litle become accustomed to homicide.

Clement of Alexandria says: you should not eat blood, because your flesh too is developed and built by blood

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have already provided Scripture previously...Find me ONE scripture that says He raised on Shabbat...

That's not nice. Now you want me to look up all your posts?

But I can, and just showed you. Matthew 28:1. YLT says, And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

But it is better understandably translated from the interlinear

But late of (the) sabbaths, [that would be afternoon] at the drawing on toward one of (the) sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary to view the grave.

Well lookie there, I just proved Jason's theory? 3 pm in the Spring would fit! The days are still short. Yay, @Jason0047! This would also mean that Saturday was the 17th! For me that is very significant! Genesis 8:4 4 "And the ark resteth, in the seventh month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on mountains of Ararat;" Why else would God make sure this date was mentioned! In fact, I think it is the first time a date had been mentioned in scripture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is not a Sabbath. I don't understand the rest. What verse are you referring to?

#238 Matthew 28:1

 

[1stcenturylady]

At now 66, I have researched and researched, and I am sure, I will continue to do so. It's like housework---never ends.

I'm 70 and just learned something new. Read #238!