Looks Like Maybe Ellen White Was Right!

[HIM]

I'm asking you to point out my error according to orthodoxy so that I can see where I went wrong.

Since nothing in Hebrews implies or says what you are putting forth in the quote below I have no idea unless you post the verses

The letter of Hebrews is teaching Jews who converted to Christianity, not to go back to Mosaic law.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Since nothing in Hebrews implies or says what you are putting forth in the quote below I have no idea unless you post the verses

Then please give me the orthodox view of what Hebrews is about.

 

[HIM]

The letter of Hebrews is teaching Jews who converted to Christianity, not to go back to Mosaic law.

So you can’t prove your above statement either. Take care

 

[guevaraj]

I've seen several passages presented that did not seem to support that Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath.

Brother, let's look at one of those passages that colors our understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4. The passage says that before understood is Jesus' message in Hebrews 3 and 4 in the new covenant to correct our understanding of the Sabbath, the Sabbath of Judaism is a shadow of what Jesus would lead His church (body) to understand in Hebrews 3 and 4. Jesus would change our understanding of the Saturday tradition of Judaism by helping us understand the history of what He taught with a Sabbath for 40 years from morning to morning with manna and the Sabbath kept in the Promised Land under Joshua until the time of Jesus when He walked among His own.

Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 BSB)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[BobRyan]

The letter of Hebrews is teaching Jews who converted to Christianity, not to go back to Mosaic law.

That is you quoting you not Hebrews.

In the book of Hebrews the OT is referred to as "The Holy Spirit says" Heb 3 - not "disregard scripture" or "disregard the OT"

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,

Heb 3 - a great example of affirming Moses

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast


Heb 11 a great example affirming Moses

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.




Heb 11 - a great example of declaring the OT saints to be giants of faith - models to be held up before NT Christians.

... bible details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

You've never posted any scripture that says Christians are required to keep the old covenant saturday sabbath. .

Heb 4:9 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
Is 66:23 for all eternity AFTER the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

The Law of God having "'honor your father and mother' as the first command with a promise" Eph 6:2 continues to be authoritative for Christians according to Paul.

James 2 - "to break one of the commands is to break them all"

I am bringing up the obvious Bible details affirmed by Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate -- in almost all Christian denominations

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You've never posted any scripture that says Christians are required to keep the old covenant saturday sabbath. I've only seen you and and your cohorts unconvincingly read that into scripture. You display being thoroughly immersed in what I know to be a latter-day man-made unorthodox unsound doctrine. I'm sure you're sincere and mean well, but it just doesn't wash.

Sorry Brian but I respectfully disagree and believe none of that is true but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. According to the scriptures Christians in the bible are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word and are called by the name of Israel, the Church or Gods' saints. According to the new covenant scriptures God's true Israel who are not only those believers that are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are also now all those believers who are now born of the Spirit into God's new covenant promise *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29.

God never made a covenant with gentiles according to the scriptures and the new covenant is only ever made to Gods 'Israel which is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow Gods' Word *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. There is no more Jewish believers and gentile believers as all are now one in Christ *Ephesians 2:11-13; Colossians 3:11 as gentile believers have been grafted in to Gods' Israel *Romans 11:13-27. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel therefore we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise which was only ever given to Israel according to the scriptures (Hebrews 8:10-12). Therefore all Christians make up Israel and are also called "the Church" which means in the Greek (ἐκκλησία; ekklēsía) a called out assembly of believers who are also called Gods' saints that believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Therefore anyone that does not believe and follow what Gods' Word says cannot be God's true Church or Gods' true Israel or God's saint according to scripture. According to the scriptures if you do a study connecting the "Church" above to "Saints" (ἅγιος; hágios) which in the Greek means morally blameless these are those that make up Gods true Church you will see that Gods saints keep all the commandments of God according to the scriptures *see Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Revelation 12:17.

As posted many time now through the scriptures everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living (scriptures here). According to the scriptures, the role of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant are to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11 while Jesus says in His own words that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:2-9. Paul also agreeing with Jesus goes further by saying that if we continue in known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come in Hebrews 10:26-31.

We know that Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is under the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and there is not a single scripture in all of Gods Word that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are no commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Sunday worship according to the scriptures is a man-made teaching and tradition handed down from the mother Church that has led many away from God and His Word to break Gods 4th commandment in opposition to the warnings given by Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 and Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11.

Now all throughout this thread you will see that by God's grace I have looked at and addressed in detail the claims of those who seek to either claim that the scriptures abolish Gods' 10 commandments or try to teach that the scriptures abolished Gods 4th commandment and in every case have shown once the full scriptures context is added back in is not saying what these people are suggesting and that they have been reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. If you disagree with my claims here then prove it. You have also stated that I have read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do no teach. I would like to ask you to prove this claims from the scriptures. Despite me asking you many times now where have I done this and asking you to prove these claims all I get in response is silence. Now if you cannot prove these claims then all we have here is the scriptures that have been shared with you in love and your words that disagree with them.

Personally Brian I do not mind if you think that there is something that I have said is not true but at least what I would hope is that you can show me my error from the scriptures that support your claims. If you cannot perhaps you should consider what has been shared with you from the scriptures are Gods Word not my words and perhaps we should believe and follow them. My prayer is that we all will not make the same mistakes as those people in the wilderness that hardened their hearts to Gods' Word that continued in sin and unbelief and were rejected by God for doing this as shown in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. So until you can prove your claims here we will have to agree to disagree.

Take Care Brian.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Then please give me the orthodox view of what Hebrews is about.

Brian can I ask you what is it in post # 7 linked that to disagree with and why from the scriptures in regards to Hebrews 3:8-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11?

 

[Bob S]

Context and detail matters Bob. According to the scriptures in 2 Corinthians 3:3-11 God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures have not been done away. It is the ministration of condemnation and death that has been done away *2 Corinthians 3:3-11; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:10-11 not Gods' 10 commandments. Gods Word does not teach a false doctrine of lawlessness (without law). According to the scriptures the purpose of Gods' law (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin. To claim that Paul is teaching that Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says to the Romans gentile believers in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law and again here to the Corinthians believers (gentiles) in 1 Corinthians 7:19 19, Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let's look at the scriptures once more time with the above in mind...

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3-18
[3], For as much as YOU ARE MANIFESTLY DECLARED TO BE THE LETTER OF CHRIST MINISTERED BY US, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART.
[4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.
[7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:
[8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?
[9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.
[11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.
[12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:
[14], BUT THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINS THE SAME VEIL NOT TAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
[15], But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
[16], NEVERTHELESS WHEN IT SHALL TURN TO THE LORD, THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
[17], Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
[18], But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

.....................

Did you catch that Bob? It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23.

Take Care.

LGW, instead of all the blah, blah, blah just answer my questions.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW, instead of all the blah, blah, blah just answer my questions.

Bob, the scriptures provided in post # 148 are not blah, blah, blah. They demonstrated that your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3 was not saying that Gods' 10 commandments were abolished they were showing from the scripture contexts that it is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through the ministration of the Spirit under the new covenant through forgiveness in Christ. What was it in the linked post above that you disagree with and why? As posted and shown through the scriptures in the linked post above it is the "ministration of condemnation and death" that has been abolished in the ministration of the spirit through Gods grace, love, mercy and forgiveness for sinners not God's 10 commandments that Paul calls holy, just and good and gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). Your questions were answered. It is not God's 10 commandments that are abolished but the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of the Spirit of God's forgiveness through Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world through the ministration of the Spirit under Gods' new covenant of grace.

Take Care Bob.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So you can’t prove your above statement either.

what's unorthodox about it?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Brother, let's look at one of those passages that colors our understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4. The passage says that before understood is Jesus' message in Hebrews 3 and 4 in the new covenant to correct our understanding of the Sabbath, the Sabbath of Judaism is a shadow of what Jesus would lead His church (body) to understand in Hebrews 3 and 4. Jesus would change our understanding of the Saturday tradition of Judaism by helping us understand the history of what He taught with a Sabbath for 40 years from morning to morning with manna and the Sabbath kept in the Promised Land under Joshua until the time of Jesus when He walked among His own.

Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 BSB)​

​

Sounds to me like you're saying that Christians are not required by God to keep the seventh day Saturday sabbath under the New Covenant.

 

[tall73]

Miriam, Aaron and Moses are in the generation that died in the wilderness and they were all prophets of God.

Yes, and Joshua and Caleb were of that generation, but were faithful and went in. I referred to the whole section in discussing the context, but when addressing the point to the other poster was summarizing that it was speaking of the people who rebelled at that time due to lack of faith, and for that reason fell short. I agree there were some who did not.

The Heb 11 text gives a lot of OT saints who had accepted what it calls "righteousness by faith" and Gal 3:8 says Abraham had the Gospel.

Agreed. And that is why I agree with Ellen White on this point, that it is talking about the rest of faith, or grace in Hebrews 3-4. And I agree with the SDA Bible Commentary that it is not a point one way or the other regarding the weekly Sabbath. Based on some points in the text it is likely addressed to Jewish believers in Christ who are in danger of falling away. It is a warning not to harden their hearts in unbelief, as those did who rebelled on the verge of entering the promised land.

If it was written to Jewish believers I would think it likely they were already keeping the weekly Sabbath in any case. Those who were in Jerusalem went on keeping the whole law, and James did not believe reports that Paul was turning those Jews in the diaspora from the law.

Chrysostom seemed to pick up on this point as well saying that he used the phrase sabbath keeping to describe this rest of faith from works, because it was in terms they understood and regarding something they were eager for, the Sabbath.

So this doesn't appear to be referencing a sabbath replacement, but rather speaking of the role of faith in entering into God's rest, which in this case, is shown as ongoing from the 7th day of creation. The Sabbath was a once a week memorial of creation, redemption from Egypt, sign that God sanctifies, etc. But the rest spoken of here is God's rest from His works which is ongoing, and they were encouraged to likewise enter that rest by faith.

The "generation that died" are being used "symbolically" for those in the Heb 3 state of Rebellion against the Word of God, but cannot be a statement that literally anyone who died in the wilderness must have been lost and without Christ.

The generation is being used symbolically for rebellion, agreed. And we also agree that some were faithful even in that wilderness generation. However, those that persisted in unbelief would be lost as it is by faith that those in Hebrews 11, etc. took hold of God's offer of salvation.

 

[tall73]

A Vision

Bob Ryan is correct in that Ellen and James received the Sabbath while studying with others (after first rejecting it), and then later claimed visions which reinforced the importance of the Sabbath.

 

[HIM]

what's unorthodox about it?

Do you realize your posts seem rather trolling? No need to answer just wonder. No need to continue take care.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Do you realize your posts seem rather trolling? No need to answer just wonder. No need to continue take care.

Did my asking you to keep your objection within orthodoxy stump you? If so, then yes, in that way I suppose I was trolling you.

 

[guevaraj]

Sounds to me like you're saying that Christians are not required by God to keep the seventh day Saturday sabbath under the New Covenant.

Brother, the Colossians passage is confirming that although Jesus kept the correct Sabbath in the Promised Land, since Joshua His Sabbath "rest" was not fully understood until Jesus guides us in Hebrews 3 and 4 under the new covenant to understand the teaching with manna that Judaism's tradition of thinking that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is a day of the week is incorrect when for 40 years with manna He taught them that assumption is wrong near the Promised Land. This information about the Sabbath taught with manna was available to them as it is for us but it did them no good because they did not share the faith of those who obey. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th day Sabbath is not a ceremonial ordinance

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath was one of many things that were shadows of things to come which means they would be fulfilled and replaced with something much greater.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Miriam, Aaron and Moses are in the generation that died in the wilderness and they were all prophets of God.

Yes, and Joshua and Caleb were of that generation,

And all the folks under 40.. But I was talking about those who did not go in that were of the generation AND were saved - and were Christian, and were examples in Heb 11 of following Christ, pursing righteousness by faith.

If it was written to Jewish believers I would think it likely they were already keeping the weekly Sabbath in any case.

It works if it is pulling in something that actually is not set aside/discarded/ended. And this can be seen by comparing Heb 4 to Heb 10:4-11 where animal sacrifices are most certainly "taken away" as the text says "He takes away the first to establish the second".

So no chance in Heb 4 having any kind of spiritual lesson of the form "There REMAINS therefore ANIMAL sacrifices for the people of God". IT simply does not work if you one is going to use a discontinued and fully ended example.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you judge in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, .

Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged". No change pre-cross or post-cross.

Does not "End" -- "food" or "drink" or any "holy day"