Looks Like Maybe Ellen White Was Right!

[Ceallaigh]

I've seen several passages presented that did not seem to support that Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath.

However Hebrews 4:8-11 (specifically verse 9) does seem to say that.

"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:8-11 NIV

*Works in this case means labors. ergon; work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

So for those who maintain that Christians having to keep the seventh day sabbath, is not in the Bible, what's a reasonable concise argument that Hebrews 4:8-11 isn't saying that?

guevaraj can post whatever he wants to in this thread.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've seen several passages presented that did not seem to support that Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath.

However Hebrews 4:8-11 (specifically verse 9) does seem to say that.

"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:8-11 NIV

*Works in this case means labors. ergon; work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

So for those who maintain that Christians having to keep the seventh day sabbath, is not in the Bible, what's a reasonable concise argument that Hebrews 4:8-11 isn't saying that?

The Sabbath rest that the Hebrews reference speaks of is our rest in Christ from having to work at being justified by God through our works. The Saturday Sabbath was a sign pointing to Jesus Christ being our Sabbath rest. Once we are justified by faith in Christ alone, the sign of the Saturday Sabbath passed into history. We don't need the sign any more when we have the real thing.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The Sabbath rest that the Hebrews reference speaks of is our rest in Christ from having to work at being justified by God through our works. The Saturday Sabbath was a sign pointing to Jesus Christ being our Sabbath rest. Once we are justified by faith in Christ alone, the sign of the Saturday Sabbath passed into history. We don't need the sign any more when we have the real thing.

That's what I've always heard. But how so?

 

[NBB]

Things are so up side down sometimes, i mean, i go to a pentecostal church, and i like how the presence of God is there, this is one of the things i look up to for going to church and its so nice in there with the presence, but they don't keep any sabbath, and then seven-day adventists don't even seek to be filled with the Holy spirit (thing very important to do), but are they who are the ones keeping the true gospel because they keep Gods commandments?

I went to a congress today, the presence of the Holy spirit was strong, no sabbath keeping there.

Just an observation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's what I've always heard. But how so?

The Scripture says that the Law is fulfilled in Christ. The Old Testament is full of signs and symbols that point to Christ. But once we are in Christ, we don't need the signs and symbols any longer.

 

[NBB]

If sabbath keeping was important to be saved, then Paul letters are misleading people to hell,
'nobody judge you about sabbath day'
'for some some days are more important than others, for others all days are the same, everyon should be convinced in their own mind'.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

HEBREWS 3 AND HEBREWS 4 SHOW SABBATH KEEPING FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD NOT GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT SABBATH OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS BEING ABOLISHED OR JESUS BEING THE SABBATH!

The whole context needs to be read from Hebrews 3:8 to Hebrews 4:11.

WHAT IS GOD’S REST IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], For HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5.

There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

............

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

................

For your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός a Sabbath keeping τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS LEXICON
So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive. there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people. of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός
σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

…………..

Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

................

SUMMARY: God's rest is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

I've seen several passages presented that did not seem to support that Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath.

However Hebrews 4:8-11 (specifically verse 9) does seem to say that.

"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:8-11 NIV

*Works in this case means labors. ergon; work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

So for those who maintain that Christians having to keep the seventh day sabbath, is not in the Bible, what's a reasonable concise argument that Hebrews 4:8-11 isn't saying that?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I am glad you have moved from discussing primarily epistemology on this topic and have begun to look at the details of specific texts.

And as I mentioned to you back in July, LoveGod'sWord is correct, the section starts back in chapter 3. You should read all of it prayerfully before going into the back and forth here. And read it without trying to prove it one way or the other to see what it says.

Then this discussion will be more helpful.

 

[tall73]

The whole context needs to be read from Hebrews 3:8 to Hebrews 4:11.

WHAT IS GOD’S REST IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], For HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9 (exegesis)

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

............

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

................

For your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

Hebrews 4, verse 9: “So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” or in other translations "There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God". In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath keeping) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός
Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS LEXICON
So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive. there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people. of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός
σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

…………..

Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

................

SUMMARY: God's rest is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Hope this is helpful.

As noted in our protracted discussion prior to this on Sabbatismos, the word is indefinite, and its usage here anarthrous.

I agree with the rendering "a sabbath rest" or "a sabbath keeping". But it is not definite, so renderings such as "keeping THE sabbath" are not warranted from the Greek word itself.

You can obviously make cases from the context for the weekly Sabbath, and the context is key for either side of the debate.

But definiteness or the specificity of the weekly sabbath is not contained in the word.

Moreover, we both acknowledge that the word sabbatismos occurs only once in Scripture. Historic usage does show uses other than a literal weekly Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As noted in our protracted discussion prior to this on Sabbatismos, the word is indefinite, and its usage here anarthrous.

I agree with the rendering "a sabbath rest" or "a sabbath keeping". But it is not definite, so renderings such as "keeping THE sabbath" are not warranted from the Greek. You can obviously make cases from the context for the weekly Sabbath, but definiteness or the specificity of the weekly sabbath is not contained in the word.

Moreover, we both acknowledge that the word sabbatismos occurs only once in Scripture. Historic usage does show uses other than a literal weekly Sabbath.

Indeed and as discussed in the other thread the translation is to there remains or is left behind a Sabbath keeping to the people of God. For those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says. I agree with either rendering as well. I believe however that context provided in Hebrews 4:1-5 has shown earlier defines the "seventh day" weekly Sabbath which is being referred to as Gods rest/His Rest/My rest that those who could not enter into because of their unbelief and sins (Hebrews 3:8-19). Also, as discussed earlier the majority of usages in the old testament and outside of scripture is to sabbath keeping or how the sabbath is kept by resting.

Take Care.

 

[tall73]

Indeed and as discussed in the other thread the translation is to there remains or is left behind a Sabbath keeping to the people of God.

Yes, I would say

There is left a sabbath keeping for/to the people of God

is a fair literal translation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, I would say

There is left a sabbath keeping for/to the people of God

is a fair literal translation.

Yes I have no problem with this.

 

[tall73]

Also, as discussed earlier the majority of usages in the old testament and outside of scripture is to sabbath keeping or how the sabbath is kept by resting.

Take Care.

You need to clarify that the usage in the OT is not of this particular word, but related words.

But yes, the term definitely refers to resting on a sabbath of one sort or the other (weekly, yearly, etc.)

 

[ewq1938]

The Sabbath originally was just for the Jews. Eventually the covenant was broken and a long time later God instituted a new covenant first offered to Jews who would accept Christ, then to the rest of the world. All who would accept Christ ie: Christians, would have a new covenant and thus a new Sabbath for rest. It because a spiritual rest rather than a certain day where one rested. A Christian has this spiritual Sabbath always because Christ gives us rest every day. We can also take literal rest from work on any day since Christ is the current concept of a Sabbath.


Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Christ is our Sabbath rest now.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath was one of many things that were shadows of things to come which means they would be fulfilled and replaced with something much greater.

Heb 4:7 Much later God told David to make the promise again, just as I have already said, "If you hear his voice today, don't be stubborn!"
Heb 4:8 If Joshua had really given the people rest, there would not be any need for God to talk about another day of rest.
Heb 4:9 But God has promised us a Sabbath when we will rest, even though it has not yet come.
Heb 4:10 On that day God's people will rest from their work, just as God rested from his work.
Heb 4:11 We should do our best to enter that place of rest, so that none of us will disobey and miss going there, as they did.

Here the Sabbath is different and is spoken as a place of rest, the eternity, when we will rest from all the struggles of life, sin and any hardships. It has not yet come, "even though it has not yet come".

 

[Ceallaigh]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I am glad you have moved from discussing primarily epistemology on this topic and have begun to look at the details of specific texts.

And as I mentioned to you back in July, LoveGod'sWord is correct, the section starts back in chapter 3. You should read all of it prayerfully before going into the back and forth here. And read it without trying to prove it one way or the other to see what it says.

Then this discussion will be more helpful.

Well like I said, up until now I haven't seen anything presented scripturally that was anywhere near this gripping. I saw loosely related or unrelated passages. Also I was looking for something clear and concise, rather than someone's complicated essay. I find that often when there's a dissertation regarding a straightforward theological statement like 'Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath' there's too much reaching involved.

Also not meaning to stray too far away from the scripture in question, there's the simple fact that only small minority of Christians have viewed this as Christians being required to keep the seventh day sabbath. So there has to be a valid reason for that. And I don't except that it's because the greater part of the whole of Christianity has been blind, deluded, deceived and hardened their hearts for two millennia as a legitimate reason.

 

[honey badger]

I've seen several passages presented that did not seem to support that Christians are required to keep the seventh day sabbath.

However Hebrews 4:8-11 (specifically verse 9) does seem to say that.

"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:8-11 NIV

*Works in this case means labors. ergon; work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

So for those who maintain that Christians having to keep the seventh day sabbath, is not in the Bible, what's a reasonable concise argument that Hebrews 4:8-11 isn't saying that?

neither Joshua or Moses gave us rest that day came in the person of Christ


If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Therefore because of this, the Jews were seeking the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.

The Sabbath is the person of Christ, and this Rest, like the law is unto life.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

There are two groups of verses in the bible that clinch it for me concerning keeping the weekly sabbath.

Gen. 2:1-3
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.

The sabbath is established and set aside as Holy with these verses. acknowledging God as creator of all things encourages a person to be a sabbath keeper. And this is long before any Jewish people walked the earth, so, Sabbath keeping isn't just a Jewish thing, which is an argument many try to use against sabbath keepers.

Rev. 12:17

And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Commandment number 4 requires Christians to remember the sabbath and to keep it Holy.
the venom frequently directed at those that do keep the sabbath only reinforces for me the correctness of it. Now, will those not keeping the sabbath be excluded from the Kingdom of God? Only God knows the answer to this. It appears as if those that know better, but, yet refuse to submit may have a problem in the future though. Sabbath keeping also demonstrates to God that you indeed have an active living faith in His Word. Much peace to everyone.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Sabbath originally was just for the Jews.

According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for all mankind and he is the Lord of it in Mark 2:27-28. The Sabbath was made therefore at creation on the seventh day of the creation week according to Genesis 2:1-3 where God blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” a holy day of rest for all mankind. There was no Jew, no Israel and no Moses, no sin and no law and no plan of salvation given because it was not needed. So to try and make claim that the Jewish people merely were keeping the Sabbath pre-cross is simply not biblical because all the disciples of Jesus continued keeping Gods 4th commandment according to the scriptures post-cross after the death and resurrection of Jesus until they died according to the scriptures which was in accord with what Jesus taught them about the Sabbath (see Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; The Apostle kept the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment; see Matthew 28:1; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4.

Eventually the covenant was broken and a long time later God instituted a new covenant first offered to Jews who would accept Christ, then to the rest of the world. All who would accept Christ ie: Christians, would have a new covenant and thus a new Sabbath for rest. It because a spiritual rest rather than a certain day where one rested. A Christian has this spiritual Sabbath always because Christ gives us rest every day. We can also take literal rest from work on any day since Christ is the current concept of a Sabbath.

Actually according to the scripture there is no scripture support to claim that Christians now have a new Sabbath because of a new covenant. This is unbiblical and not supported in the scriptures. God always planned on having difference covenants firstly to individuals (e.g. Noah (Genesis 9:8-17), Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3), Jacob (Genesis 28:10-36; 43) who's name was changed to Israel) then collectively to the seed of Abraham and Jacob called Israel.

The Mosaic covenant was different to that of the fathers because it was a collective covenant not given to individuals anymore but a collective covenant given to the seed of Abraham now called Israel through Jacob as a group of people (nation) which included both (1) Gods' 10 commandments *Exodus 34:28 that were spoken *Exodus 20:1-17 and written by God alone on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16 to give Gods' people the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. The other part of the covenant was (2) the book of the covenant written and spoken by Moses as directed by God *Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 31:24-26. Many people do not understand the covenants. The Mosaic covenant was not just Gods' 10 commandments but also included the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 and collectively they both made up the old covenant given to Gods' people Israel of the seed of Abraham.

Gods 10 commandments to given them the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness and the book of the covenant with other supplementary moral laws of right and wrong, civil laws for a people, the laws for remission of sins that included the Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary that was a copy of the heavenly, health and hygiene laws, the laws of the blessings and curses for obedience and disobedience and the laws of the annual feast days, and their sabbaths, the meat and drink offerings and new moons etc etc this covenant included the Genesis, Exodus, the laws for remission of sin also in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Numbers. This covenant of course grew to include the words of the prophets.

The laws for remission of sins (animal sacrifices and sin offerings for atonement for sin) given given and practiced Patriarchs and given in the Mosaic book of the covenant to Israel which also included the annual Feast days (Leviticus 1:1-13; Leviticus 23:1-44; Numbers 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 24:10-11; Exodus 24:3; Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Colossians 2:16-16; Hebrews 10:1; Ephesians 2:14-15; Leviticus 4; 5; 6; Hebrews 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; not exhaustive there are many more) where all prophetic in nature pointing to the promised coming of Jesus as the Messiah and His role as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29: 36; Hebrews 10:10 once and for all and the new role of Jesus under the new covenant as and his work and ministration as our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22).

The new covenant was never made with gentile. The new covenant was always only made to Gods' Israel according to the scriptures *see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. In both the old and new covenants Gods' people were always saved in the same way and that is by faith *Hebrews 11. The only differences beside the process was that God's people in the old covenant looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah while we in the new covenant look backwards to Jesus who has already now come. The shadows of the old laws for remission of sins now being fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to. This is why the scripture is written "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." - Mathew 11:13 because the Mosaic law for remission of sins and the prophets and John the Baptist all pointed to Jesus as the coming Christ (Messiah).

God's new covenant promise was never going to be with anyone else accept Israel which was simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow His Word. Firstly to the physical seed of Abraham in the old covenant and then to all those who through faith in God's Word were born again of the Spirit of God to believe and follow Gods' Word in the new covenant. In the new covenant Gods' Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who through faith have been born of the Spirit into Gods' Israel *see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29 and Romans 2:28-29 (more scripture here).

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Here your mixing up the gospel rest that all enter into by believing and following what Gods 'Word says. Come unto me (the Word -John 1:1-4; 14); learn of me; take my yoke upon you. The gospel rest is believing and following what Gods' Word says or all the Word of God so includes all of God's commandments and laws applicable to the new covenant. It is not talking about the "seventh day" Sabbath of Gods' 10 commandments and of course no one enters into the gospel rest by not believing and following what Gods' Word says (unbelief and sin - see Hebrews 3:8-19). Sin of course being defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23

Christ is our Sabbath rest now.

There is no scripture to support that Christ is a Sabbath. The only biblical definition of the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is found in Exodus 20:10 which says [10], But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbath was one of many things that were shadows of things to come which means they would be fulfilled and replaced with something much greater.

Actually no, according to the scriptures, the context of Colossians 2:16-17 is in reference to the meat and the drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths or other translations Sabbath days (plural) in the Feast days. I am not sure if you are aware but Paul is referring to a number of scriptures in the old testament (e.g. Ezekiel 45:17). There were many different kinds of sabbaths (plural) in the old covenant especially connected directly to the annual Feast days, the new moons, the meat and drink offerings that could fall on any day of the week outside of Gods 4th commandment that was simply every "seventh day" of the week as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth. These annual Feast sabbaths (including holy convocations where no work was allowed) included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36). Colossians 2:16-17 is in reference to the meat and drink offerings the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) that were connected to these Feasts that are shadows of things to come. Not Gods' 10 commandments or Gods 4th commandment that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11). Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath (Hebrews 4:9).

Heb 4:7 Much later God told David to make the promise again, just as I have already said, "If you hear his voice today, don't be stubborn!"
Heb 4:8 If Joshua had really given the people rest, there would not be any need for God to talk about another day of rest.
Heb 4:9 But God has promised us a Sabbath when we will rest, even though it has not yet come.
Heb 4:10 On that day God's people will rest from their work, just as God rested from his work.
Heb 4:11 We should do our best to enter that place of rest, so that none of us will disobey and miss going there, as they did.

Here the Sabbath is different and is spoken as a place of rest, the eternity, when we will rest from all the struggles of life, sin and any hardships. It has not yet come, "even though it has not yet come".

Your using a faulty translation here as there is nothing in the Greek that says the Sabbath has not yet come (see here). Your translation does not agree with 97% of all translations of Hebrews 4:9 (see here) and also disagrees with the chapter contexts but lets show why. The Greek word for "remains" is ἀπολείπετα; apoleipetai and is a verb that is present indicative and means left behind or stays or continues.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G620
G620 — ἀπολείπω: (imperfect ἀπελειπον, WH text in 2Tim 4:13, 4:20; Titus 1:5); 2 aorist ἀπέλιπον; (from Homer down);
1. to leave, leave behind: one in some place, Titus 1:5 L T Tr WH; 2Tim 4:18, 4:20. Passive ἀπολείπεται it remains, is reserved: Heb 4:9; 10:26; followed by the accusative and an infinitive, 4:6.
2. to desert, forsake: a place, Jude 1:6.

STRONGS NT 620: ἀπολείπω
ἀπολείπω: (imperfect ἀπελειπον, WH text in 2 Timothy 4:13, 20; Titus 1:5); 2 aorist ἀπέλιπον; (from Homer down); 1. to leave, leave behind: one in some place, Titus 1:5 L T Tr WH; 2 Timothy 4:18, 20. Passive ἀπολείπεται it remains, is reserved: Hebrews 4:9; Hebrews 10:26; followed by the accusative and an infinitive, Hebrews 4:6. 2. to desert, forsake: a place, Jude 1:6.

Also your interpretation does not agree with the scripture context which is to Gods' rest which we who believe enter into present tense (see Hebrews 4:1-5).

Let's talk about the another day...

[8], FOR IF JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST, THEN WOULD HE NOT AFTERWARD HAVE SPOKEN OF ANOTHER DAY.

Let’s put it all together. Both those in the wilderness and those of us “today” that have received the gospel of God’s Word have both had the gospel (Word of God) preached to us. Those who JESUS gave rest (Sabbath rest) are those of us who believe and follow God’s Word. By believing and following God’s Word we enter into Gods “seventh day Sabbath rest” as defined in Hebrews 4:4-5. The "another day" therefore is in reference to the gospel being preached "unto us" at the coming of the Messiah “Today if you will hear HIS VOICE {JESUS} harden not you’re your heart as in the day of the wilderness (Psalms 95; Hebrews 3). It is those of us that believe and follow God’s Word (the gospel) in JESUS "today" that enter into God’s rest which the context defines as the “seventh day sabbath”

[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into HIS REST, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER THAT REST, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

.............

Take Care.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'd prefer it if we could stick to Hebrews instead of reruns of apologetics please folks.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'd prefer it if we could stick to Hebrews instead of reruns of apologetics please folks.

Well Brian the post above yours is not a re-run so to speak and it is on topic in regards to addressing an interpretation of Hebrews 4 that I believe is not biblical showing why from the scriptures so I believe it is on topic to the OP. Is there anything specific your interested in discussing from Hebrews 4? As posted earlier though Hebrews 4 should be read in connection with Hebrews 3. Together they are actually a warning to us as Gods' people that if we do not believe and follow Gods' Word and continue in sin we will never enter into Gods Rest (defined as the seventh day Sabbath created from the foundation of the world) and will be lost like the children in the wilderness.

God bless.