Looking for patterns in personal experiences

cloudyday2

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Typically religious experiences are things such as visions, dreams, odd coincidences. They happen unexpectedly, are experienced by one person, and leave no physical evidence behind. They can usually be explained fully by the psychology of the experiencer.

(1) How could a spiritual being deliver a message to a skeptical human and make it persuasive?
(2) How could a skeptical human be persuaded that religious experiences have a spiritual message?

The obvious solution would be miracles, but maybe the physical laws of the universe cannot be violated. In that case, a miracle could be no more than a coincidence with meaning. For example, a person might roll three dice hundreds of times and always get the number 666. But even that unlikely coincidence could be ignored as a coincidence. How many times are dice rolled everyday with no apparent meaning and pattern?

So another solution might be to include something bizarre in the religious experience and to repeat the religious experience for two unrelated people. For example, rather than Jesus telling me to become a missionary in Africa, why not have Mickey Mouse tell me? And why not have another person share the same dream where Mickey Mouse tells them to become a missionary in Africa? That would be more persuasive.

Interestingly, the Bible has examples of skeptics who use similar methods. In Judges, Gideon asks for a couple of unlikely physical phenomena involving wool and morning dew to satisfy his skepticism. And in Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar asks for somebody else to describe his dream to validate the dream interpretation but maybe also to validate the dream itself.
 
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Junia

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It seems to me that personal experiences which individually would not be persuasive data could be collected and patterns might emerge that cannot be explained by common culture.

For example, if I dreamed that I was levitated out of my bed into a flying saucer it wouldn't be very persuasive even though many others have also dreamed that. The alien abduction experience is commonly known in our culture.

On the other hand, if I dreamed that the devil told me to become a Christian missionary in Africa it would be persuasive if another person had a similar dream. On the other hand, the same dream with the devil replaced by Jesus would not be as persuasive even if other had a similar dream. Jesus is expected by our culture to encourage people to become Christian missionaries, but the devil is not expected to do that.

In other words, if I was a spiritual being trying to persuade a human then I might need to add some culturally bizarre elements to the dream and deliver it to several unrelated people.

I actually knew someone years ago who had a sign from God. she was seeking God and interested int he christian faith. went to Greenbelt and was very much moved by it. she was like "if God loves me, will He show it?" on the way home she was lookign at the sky and saw the words "Jesus loves you." in skywriting... now, i know it sounds far fetched. but this person was not the sort to make things up
 
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royal priest

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It seems to me that personal experiences which individually would not be persuasive data could be collected and patterns might emerge that cannot be explained by common culture.

For example, if I dreamed that I was levitated out of my bed into a flying saucer it wouldn't be very persuasive even though many others have also dreamed that. The alien abduction experience is commonly known in our culture.

On the other hand, if I dreamed that the devil told me to become a Christian missionary in Africa it would be persuasive if another person had a similar dream. On the other hand, the same dream with the devil replaced by Jesus would not be as persuasive even if others had a similar dream. Jesus is expected by our culture to encourage people to become Christian missionaries, but the devil is not expected to do that.

In other words, if I was a spiritual being trying to persuade a human then I might need to add some culturally bizarre elements to the dream and deliver it to several unrelated people.
You're on to something. The Lord had His prophets do some pretty crazy stuff to get His message across. Check out Hosea chapter one and Ezekiel four.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Sounds like data mining. I hear they can get some pretty bizarre correlations between seemingly unrelated attributes. I suspect the jury is still out on whether it's meaningful or just a bunch of really sophisticated coincidences.
 
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Job3315

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It seems to me that personal experiences which individually would not be persuasive data could be collected and patterns might emerge that cannot be explained by common culture.

For example, if I dreamed that I was levitated out of my bed into a flying saucer it wouldn't be very persuasive even though many others have also dreamed that. The alien abduction experience is commonly known in our culture.

On the other hand, if I dreamed that the devil told me to become a Christian missionary in Africa it would be persuasive if another person had a similar dream. On the other hand, the same dream with the devil replaced by Jesus would not be as persuasive even if others had a similar dream. Jesus is expected by our culture to encourage people to become Christian missionaries, but the devil is not expected to do that.

In other words, if I was a spiritual being trying to persuade a human then I might need to add some culturally bizarre elements to the dream and deliver it to several unrelated people.
I read this twice and I still don't understand what you are saying. Can you please elaborate? I am interested in the topic.
 
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cloudyday2

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I read this twice and I still don't understand what you are saying. Can you please elaborate? I am interested in the topic.
Typically religious experiences are things such as visions, dreams, odd coincidences. They happen unexpectedly, are experienced by one person, and leave no physical evidence behind. They can usually be explained fully by the psychology of the experiencer.

(1) How could a spiritual being deliver a message to a skeptical human and make it persuasive?
(2) How could a skeptical human be persuaded that religious experiences have a spiritual message?

The obvious solution would be miracles, but maybe the physical laws of the universe cannot be violated. In that case, a miracle could be no more than a coincidence with meaning. For example, a person might roll three dice hundreds of times and always get the number 666. But even that unlikely coincidence could be ignored as a coincidence. How many times are dice rolled everyday with no apparent meaning and pattern?

So another solution might be to include something bizarre in the religious experience and to repeat the religious experience for two unrelated people. For example, rather than Jesus telling me to become a missionary in Africa, why not have Mickey Mouse tell me? And why not have another person share the same dream where Mickey Mouse tells them to become a missionary in Africa? That would be more persuasive.

Interestingly, the Bible has examples of skeptics who use similar methods. In Judges, Gideon asks for a couple of unlikely physical phenomena involving wool and morning dew to satisfy his skepticism. And in Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar asks for somebody else to describe his dream to validate the dream interpretation but maybe also to validate the dream itself.

Hope that clarifies.

(I'm going to edit the OP with this explanation, because I agree that it was confusing.)
 
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cloudyday2

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Sounds like data mining. I hear they can get some pretty bizarre correlations between seemingly unrelated attributes. I suspect the jury is still out on whether it's meaningful or just a bunch of really sophisticated coincidences.
When studying a collection of religious experiences, most of the patterns emerging will be explainable as common culture. For example, Jesus is well known throughout the world as the founder of Christianity - even in non-Christian cultures. So a hundred unrelated Muslims who have visions of Jesus urging them to convert to Christianity is not particularly persuasive. If a bizarre element is added such as dressing Jesus in a wet suit with a snorkeling mask and a spear gun and if that bizarre element is repeated for multiple people then a pattern becomes more persuasive. (However, the bizarre element must not be too extreme or it will have the opposite effect and cause the religious experiencer to be less persuaded instead of more persuaded. In other words, the religious experiencer might say "that was certainly a silly dream" rather than "I wonder what that dream means".)
 
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Job3315

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(1) How could a spiritual being deliver a message to a skeptical human and make it persuasive?

When you say a spiritual being, you mean an angel, God or are you talking about Christians/Seers/Prophets?
 
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Job3315

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An angel, demon, god, ghost, etc.

(1) How could a spiritual being deliver a message to a skeptical human and make it persuasive?
(2) How could a skeptical human be persuaded that religious experiences have a spiritual message?

This is coming from a christian perspective and based on my experience with dreams and visions.

God knows what He is doing when He gives you a message. Every message from God is an invitation to grow in and with Him. You can only be persuaded by the devil, demons or your soul when you don't know the heart of God; communion with Him helps you grow in discernment. He doesn't need to persuade you, He knows you, so He knows what to tell you, its up to you to believe it in faith. Eventually you learn to discern what is the source and what to do with the message.

For example, if a person tells my family that I got drunk last night, my family will tell the person that that information is false, because my family know I don't drink because I dislike the taste of alcohol. Them knowing me help them discern the message is coming from a wrong source and its a lie.

I hope this helps.
 
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Robban

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When studying a collection of religious experiences, most of the patterns emerging will be explainable as common culture. For example, Jesus is well known throughout the world as the founder of Christianity - even in non-Christian cultures. So a hundred unrelated Muslims who have visions of Jesus urging them to convert to Christianity is not particularly persuasive. If a bizarre element is added such as dressing Jesus in a wet suit with a snorkeling mask and a spear gun and if that bizarre element is repeated for multiple people then a pattern becomes more persuasive. (However, the bizarre element must not be too extreme or it will have the opposite effect and cause the religious experiencer to be less persuaded instead of more persuaded. In other words, the religious experiencer might say "that was certainly a silly dream" rather than "I wonder what that dream means".)

If it is a one-time thing, why worry?

Like the telephone is ringing, you are occupied with other things, so you do not answer.

After all, if it is that important they will call again.
 
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