Looking for at least one other serious Bible student - regarding end times.

[BobRyan]

1) The 'gathering' takes place after the abomination

IT says "after the tribulation" and I also agree that it says this after it talks about the abomination of desolation... so yeah based in the details in the text - it is after all of it... even after the fake second coming events as well according to the chapter and after the great signs and wonders, after the signs in the heavens with sun and moon etc.

2) The beast is destroyed - after the tribulation.

True because the beast is part of the tribulation

The beast is oppressing people who have been gathered ('saints').

Nothing in Matt 24 says the beast is doing anything at all after vs 31.. in fact there is no mention of "beast" at all in Matt 24 so we would need to go to Rev 13 or 14 - and while they do mention the beast they don't mention the gatherering at the rapture - which in Revelation is chapter 19 in any case.

3) Literally nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are 'raptured' to heaven.

John 14:1-3 "In My Fathers house are many rooms... I GO to prepare A PLACE for you and if I go to prepare a place for you I will come again and RECEIVE you to myself - in order that - WHERE I am THERE you may be also" --

Matt 6:9 "Our Father who is in heaven - hallowed be Thy name...'
Matthew 5:16 glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
Matthew 18:14 "your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish."'

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them

Matt 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in this same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matt 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Nowhere. Even in these verses, it says 'in the air'.

Matt 24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Do you think that Paul doesn't know the word for 'heaven'?

I would never claim that as we see in vs 16 and in vs 17 in the previous quote.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Why doesn't he use it?

???

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the return to Israel from the Babylonian captivity was a partial regathering

The coming of Christ -- Second coming - is the topic of Matt 24.

Israel was already free to return to Israel - so much so that in Acts 15 when the Christians go to other lands and then some doctrinal dispute arises they come back to Jerusalem to hash out their differences. They were free to travel to Israel at the time of the NT.

Matt 24 is about the second coming of Christ.

It is not about "Israel coming again".

Matt 24:
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many people.

It is about Christ coming, and also warns about false Christ's coming as if that were the 2nd coming.

Matt 24:
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

It is an event in the sky - and is seen in the sky - by all - just as lighting flashes are seen across the entire sky.

 

[Douggg]

Matt 24 is about the second coming of Christ.

It is not about "Israel coming again".

Bob, no one is saying "Israel coming again".

Right now, there are Jews scattered in the nations around the world. In Luke 21:24, Jesus said that they would be taken captive into the nations - until the time of the gentiles end. Following 70 AD is when the Jews were taken captive into the nations.

--------------------------

Ezekiel 39:17-20, is the Armageddon event. And in Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth.

In Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus speaking, all of the house of Israel, will be brought back into the land, leaving none in nations, where they were taken captive. It is the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other in Matthew 24:31.

Differently, the rapture event takes believers to heaven, from the earth.

 

[anetazo]

I respect other people's beliefs. Although I don't believe in the rapture theory. Ezekiel chapter 13, God is against the rapture theory. I documented it. Has it ever occurred to anyone, that ephesians chapter 6 is the key past antichrist lies and deception near future. The gospel armour is knowledge and wisdom of God's word. When satan as antichrist comes 6th trump, its a spirtual battlefield. It's not physical. Its words, ideas and concepts. If someone desires to believe in buddha or Islam, that's their choice. I respect their beliefs. Although it's traditions of men. Genesis chapter 6, Noah's flood was geographical. The fallen angels mixed in with people to pollute the blood line which messiah would be born. Satan failed, because Noah was pure. He didn't mix in with the fallen angels. Jeremiah chapter 4, the Kadabal is world wide flood that killed the dinosaurs. This happened in the first earth age. Satan led a rebellion against God, one third of God's children followed satan. I know what I'm talking about. I have the holy spirit. And I studied under pastor Arnold murray/Dennis, and other certified Christian scholars. Like, e w bullinger, e raymond Capt, dr barry fell. Thier was first earth age and some people don't know it. Sadly, some churches won't teach the 3 earth ages or revelation or parable of the fig tree. Amos chapter 8, were in time of famine. It's hearing God's truth. Many priests have failed in their capacity to nourish their flocks. After 20 years, the congregation should be teachers of God's word. Documentation, read Hebrew chapter 5.

 

[DavidPT]

And I studied under pastor Arnold murray/Dennis, and other certified Christian scholars.

LOL at placing those 2, the late Arnold Murray and his son in this category--certified Christian scholars That's a good one. I'm not laughing at you having studied under them since that is sad, not something funny, that you allowed these 2 of all people to brainwash you with their nonsensical teachings. 3 earth ages, Kenites, the serpent seed doctrine, the list goes on.

 

[BobRyan]

Right now, there are Jews scattered in the nations around the world.

No doubt but the context and content of Matt 24 is not at all about "some day in the future Jews will be scattered all around the world - so then when will those Jews return?"

That is not the Matt 24 question - rather it is about Christ's coming, the end of the world. The answer includes details about false second comings, great signs and wonders, Visible appearing of Christ as is the case with lightning going from horizon to horizon etc.

In Luke 21:24, Jesus said that they would be taken captive into the nations - until the time of the gentiles end. Following 70 AD is when the Jews were taken captive into the nations.

Yes 70 AD is yet "another" dispersion that came after the return of the Jews out of Babylonian captivity.

But the Matt 24 content that we see in the OP and the second post of this thread - are not at all about a future dispersion of Israel or the coming of the Jews -- rather it is about the coming of Christ - His second coming also foretold in John 14:1-3, and revealed again in Rev 19, and 2 Thess 1, and 1 Thess 4:13-18.

No wonder Peter says to focus completely on that one event in 1 Peter 1:13

 

[BobRyan]

I respect other people's beliefs. Although I don't believe in the rapture theory. Ezekiel chapter 13, God is against the rapture theory

Did you review the Bible evidence in the OP and the second post?

Did you see the sermon posted there??

 

[Douggg]

No doubt but the context and content of Matt 24 is not at all about "some day in the future Jews will be scattered all around the world - so then when will those Jews return?"

That is not the Matt 24 question - rather it is about Christ's coming, the end of the world. The answer includes details about false second comings, great signs and wonders, Visible appearing of Christ as is the case with lightning going from horizon to horizon etc.

Jesus's Second Coming includes Him gathering all the house of Israel out of the nations back to the land of Israel.

But you are not comprehending Matthew 24:31 = Deuteronomy 30:1-6 = Ezekiel 39:28.

But the Matt 24 content that we see in the OP and the second post of this thread - are not at all about a future dispersion of Israel or the coming of the Jews -- rather it is about the coming of Christ - His second coming also foretold in John 14:1-3, and revealed again in Rev 19, and 2 Thess 1, and 1 Thess 4:13-18.

1Thessalonians 4:13-18, the rapture verses is before Jesus's Second Coming.
John 14:1-3 are verses also about the rapture to heaven.

Jesus's Second Coming is His return to earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus's Second Coming includes Him gathering all the house of Israel out of the nations back to the land of Israel.

That is a great example of what we do not find in Matt 24 so then you quote nothing from Matt 24 to argue for that idea.

1Thessalonians 4:13-18, the rapture verses is before Jesus's Second Coming.

Depends on how you define those terms.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we have the rapture - the same appearing of Christ that Peter says is the entire focus of the whole Christian church.
1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Which is the event that John is focused on in Rev 19.
It is the focus of John 14:1-3
It is the focus of 2 Thess 1:5-8
It is the focus of Matt 24
It is the focus of 2 Thess 2:1-10

And if by "second coming " you mean coming to rule on Earth in His New Jerusalem -- then
Jesus' coming to Earth is seen in Rev 20 and 21 - where the New Jerusalem , Christ and all the saints are once again on Earth.

John 14:1-3 are verses also about the rapture to heaven.

Jesus's Second Coming is His return to earth.

 

[DavidPT]

4. And the result is that Jer 4:23-26 condition of the earth desolate, the cities all destroyed by God's wrath alone - and "no humans" left on planet Earth. (at least during the 1000 year millennium prior to Christ's return to Earth to judge the wicked and setup His kingdom in the New Earth)

Let's see if you are a serious Bible student yourself by examining your interpretation of why you apply Jeremiah 4:23-29 to what you do.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.



Do you not apply this to satan's binding? That since you interpret Revelation 19:21 to mean no mortal survivors, this passage above means all saints are transported to heaven during the thousand years, and that the earth is empty below leaving satan there alone? After all, the text does say, I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, right? What about verse 29, though? Maybe you should be interpreting verse 25 in light of verse 27?

What about verses 1-22? Why are you interpreting verses 23-29 apart from what is recorded in verses 1-22? Take verse 22, for instance. For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. Does that sound like something that might fit your interpretation of verses 23-29?

What about what Zechariah 14:16-19 records, that there are mortal survivors remaining on the earth following Revelation 19:21? What about what Revelation 20 records, that there are nations on the earth after the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, meaning the people that are living in these nations? In order for there to be all these people in these nations on the earth after the thousand years, obviously this requires that they are present on the earth during the thousand years as well, except, via your interpretation of Jeremiah 4:24-29 and Revelation 19:21, you have the entire planet empty during the thousand years.

But let me guess, you don't really want to critically discuss your interpretation involving Jeremiah 4:24-29, even though you initially brought it up. Because by doing so it will prove that you can't live up to the expectations you think others need to live up to in order to be considered serious Bible students. Because, after all, serious Bible students are able to consider that they may be wrong about things and then change their view accordingly. Except you are never going to change your view pertaining to how you interpret Jeremiah 4:24-29 in light of what verses 1-22 record.

And you are never going to change your view pertaining to how you interpret Revelation 19:21, in light of what Zechariah 14:16-19 records, and what Revelation 20:7-9 records. Only a serious Bible student would and could do that. After all, isn't that what you have been implying throughout this thread, things of this nature? Such as interpreting passages in context, leaving bias out of it, etc. That this is what all serious Bible students do and are expected to do, well, except for maybe you, though. Somehow, in your mind, you don't have to live up to the expectations you require of others. Only they do, and not you as well. Prove me wrong by admitting that you are misapplying Jeremiah 4:23-29, then change your view accordingly.

BTW, interpreting Jeremiah 4:23-29 and Revelation 19:21, the same way all other SDAs do, is bringing bias to the text. How can it not be, the fact only SDAs interpret Jeremiah 4:23-29 in that manner, and that no one else does?

 

[Douggg]

That is a great example of what we do not find in Matt 24 so then you quote nothing from Matt 24 to argue for that idea.

Bob, I have been showing in many of my posts in this thread that Matthew 24:31.....

Matthew 24:31 = Deuteronomy 30:1-6 = Ezekiel 39:28.

From one end of heaven to the other is both in Matthew 24:31 and Deuteronomy 30:4. Ezekiel 39:28 is also the gathering of all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel. Unware of these verses, you have wrongly assumed that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture. It is not.

Matthew 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[DavidPT]

Bob, I have been showing in many of my posts in this thread that Matthew 24:31.....

Matthew 24:31 = Deuteronomy 30:1-6 = Ezekiel 39:28.

From one end of heaven to the other is both in Matthew 24:31 and Deuteronomy 30:4. Ezekiel 39:28 is also the gathering of all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel. Unware of these verses, you have wrongly assumed that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture. It is not.

Matthew 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

In your mind, you think you fully grasp what all Ezekiel 39 is involving, except you apparently don't. How can you not see that they are already in their land when Gog attacks and are still in their land after Gog attacks, and no matter how one looks at it, they are already in their land and remain in their land before the time Matthew 24:31 is involving? Therefore, this in Ezekiel 39:28---but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there---is meaning before they are attacked by Gog and his multitude, thus can't be meaning Matthew 24:31.


Why are you then having them gathered back into their land that they were already gathered back into, during the time Matthew 24:31 is involving? Where are you seeing in Ezekiel 39 that they are once again expelled from their land following God's judgment on Gog and his multitude, therefore, needing to be regathered yet again, meaning Matthew 24:31 to you? What part of---and have left none of them any more there--are you not grasping? This is involving a permanent return and them staying here permanently, not instead a short lived return followed by another exile, followed by yet another return.

I think one of your problems is how you are wrongly applying Matthew 24:15-21 by taking that in the literal sense. That in the 21st century there will literally be Jews in that region fleeing to literal mountains. Except that contradicts Ezekiel 39 because once they are back in their land they are never removed from it again. Not by God nor by they choosing to do so themselves, such as fleeing to the mountains.

Matthew 24:31 is involving the gathering of the dead and alive saints. The elect in the NT is not meaning the Jews alone, it is meaning both Jew and Gentile, it is meaning the church.

 

[keras]

I think one of your problems is how you are wrongly applying Matthew 24:15-21 by taking that in the literal sense. That in the 21st century there will literally be Jews in that region fleeing to literal mountains. Except that contradicts Ezekiel 39 because once they are back in their land they are never removed from it again. Not by God nor by they choosing to do so themselves, such as fleeing to the mountains.

Matthew 24:31 is involving the gathering of the dead and alive saints. The elect in the NT is not meaning the Jews alone, it is meaning both Jew and Gentile, it is meaning the church.

The Christian Jews who fled from the Roman army, happened in 66 AD.

The people living in all of the holy Land when Gog attacks, will be all Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language. They will rely on the Lord for their protection and He delivers it!

 

[Douggg]

Therefore, this in Ezekiel 39:28---but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there---is meaning before they are attacked by Gog and his multitude, thus can't be meaning Matthew 24:31.

Ezekiel 39 contains the Gog/Magog event. Followed by the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. At the end of those 7 years is the Armageddon event, in verses 17-20.

verses 21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth. Ezekiel 39:28 is Matthew 24:31.

 

[Douggg]

In your mind, you think you fully grasp what all Ezekiel 39 is involving, except you apparently don't. How can you not see that they are already in their land when Gog attacks and are still in their land after Gog attacks, and no matter how one looks at it, they are already in their land and remain in their land before the time Matthew 24:31 is involving?

At the time of the attack by Gog/Magog, the Jews (a part of them) will have come back into the land, and Israel a nation in the land again. The present situation.

But not all of the Jews have come back to Israel. There are still multitudes in the nations. When Jesus returns, He will send his angels out to gather every last one of them out of the nations - that's what Ezekiel 39:28 and Matthew 24:31 is about.

 

[keras]

But not all of the Jews have come back to Israel. There are still multitudes in the nations. When Jesus returns, He will send his angels out to gather every last one of them out of the nations - that's what Ezekiel 39:28 and Matthew 24:31 is about.

You exhibit a total failure to read the Prophesies that say just what the Lord intends for the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews.
Amos 2:4-5 For crime after crime of Judah, I shall grant them no reprieve. Because they have spurned the Law of the Lord and have not kept His decrees and have been led astray by false gods; therefore I shall send fire upon Judah, to consume the buildings of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 2o:46-48....I will kindle a fire in Israel, its fiery flames will not be put out, they will burn everyone from the Negev Northward.

There are many other Bible Prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Judah and only a remnant will survive.
The false teaching of the rapture theory, has to have all the Jews finally being restored and becoming Christians. The Bibel never says such a thing will happen.

 

[Jipsah]

As long as you have no family or friends that will go through that time and would be benefited by your having some understanding of those texts -- then maybe you are right.

There is no "maybe". No Christian who has died since our Lord ascension would have benefitted at all by an utterly perfect understanding of the "End Times". As for those of us who haven't yet gone to our reward, I reckon if we're ready to die, we're ready for our Lord's return.

 

[Douggg]

You exhibit a total failure to read the Prophesies that say just what the Lord intends for the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews.
Amos 2:4-5 For crime after crime of Judah, I shall grant them no reprieve. Because they have spurned the Law of the Lord and have not kept His decrees and have been led astray by false gods; therefore I shall send fire upon Judah, to consume the buildings of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 2o:46-48....I will kindle a fire in Israel, its fiery flames will not be put out, they will burn everyone from the Negev Northward.

keras, sometimes your lead-ins make me laugh. I am not the one misunderstanding - you are.

The worshipping of false gods and punishment for it - took place as the Babylonian captivity period. After the Jews returned to Jersualem, they had learned their lesson about false gods - and in the new testament, no-one, including Jesus, accused them of continuing to worship false gods.

 

[Douggg]

The false teaching of the rapture theory, has to have all the Jews finally being restored and becoming Christians. The Bibel never says such a thing will happen.

No, the rapture to heaven is not dependent upon the gathering of all the Jews back to Israel. The rapture takes place before the Jews become Christians. And before all of the Jews are gathered back to Israel.

rapture, the escape
then the great tribulation
then during the great tribulation the Jews become Christians
then Jesus returns to end the great tribulation.
then Jesus sends his angels to gather all of the Jews back to Israel.

 

[keras]

keras, sometimes your lead-ins make me laugh. I am not the one misunderstanding - you are.

The worshipping of false gods and punishment for it - took place as the Babylonian captivity period. After the Jews returned to Jersualem, they had learned their lesson about false gods - and in the new testament, no-one, including Jesus, accused them of continuing to worship false gods.

The gpd the Jews worship, if they believe in a god at all, is the one dreamed up by the Rabbi's in the Torah and the Mishna.
Because they did receive punishment in ancient times, does not mean they won't be punished again. As is clearly prophesied, something you are incapable of seeing.

No, the rapture to heaven is not dependent upon the gathering of all the Jews back to Israel.

But if the Church goes to heaven, [an impossibility] the Jews must remain to face the Anti-Christ 'beast'. The usual false teaching.

It must be several years ago that I said that you fail in the objective of your by-line. You remain Tn error and confusion.