Looking for answers and questioning

[Moses Medina]

With that said you hit the nail on the head with how we view grace and and our sinful state. One of the things we argue for this is it outs a complete trust that we are saved into Gods hands, so because we have his promise through baptism, adopted into the olive branch which is Christ.

The process of becoming holy is the fruit of faith and thus begins our process of sanctification.

How is it viewed in Orthodoxy compared to this.

QUOTE="gurneyhalleck1

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

Not .02 cents, my friend. That is a $100 HEART of the matter, at least to me. In looking over my life, I find that the shackles of fear created by God as the infinitely angry Judge, rather than as loving Father leading His children deeper into theosis, created in me a deep spiritual sickness that I am still trying to get over. What I see in Western theology is nothing less than what Emperor Justinian said regarding the idea of Patristic Universalism - that if they believe in this, they will become lazy, sinful, and indulgent. So the sinners must be kept in line by the whip of fear, rather than led by the gentle voice of the loving Shepherd.

Who can find a God who in your deepest heart you fear rather than love? How can you find the Uncreated Light when you expect that this Light will burn you rather than caress you? And as a corollary, how can you show anything but judgment to others when you yourself walk around feeling you are always under judgment.

Yeah, that paragraph struck a deep chord in me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What you said makes sense. Just to put it out there though confessional lutheranism is very skeptical of the mystical though we do believe the blessed Eucharist to be a mystery as is Baptism. But we dont define it as a relationship with God in the sense that evangelicalism does. To us it is an action initiated by God to give us his gifts of grace through tangible means. We taste and we remember our baptism, we hear the word and thus our feelings are put to the side to fully accept the promises of God, for our feelings can betray us.

I will just add this ...

Lutherans are correct to be wary of mystical experiences and emotionalism. We are taught to be extremely cautious of mystical experiences to the point of possibly erring in our rejection of it. Deceptions are of course possible.

But we don't deny that the authentic is also possible. Extreme caution is necessary though, and we most certainly don't go seeking for any experience.

I find it a healthy, balanced view, based on many centuries of wisdom from those who have devoted their lives to prayer.

 

[Light of the East]

What you said makes sense. Just to put it out there though confessional lutheranism is very skeptical of the mystical though we do believe the blessed Eucharist to be a mystery as is Baptism. But we dont define it as a relationship with God in the sense that evangelicalism does. To us it is an action initiated by God to give us his gifts of grace through tangible means. We taste and we remember our baptism, we hear the word and thus our feelings are put to the side to fully accept the promises of God, for our feelings can betray us.

If I can say this kindly and "without teeth," the skepticism of the West comes from the scholastic underpinnings of Western thought based on Roman Catholic legalism and scholasticism. It is no accident that the Reformation was begun by two men who were at heart lawyers and scholastics. Roman Catholicism, as stated by Barlaam the Monk, states that through the intellect you come to know God.

Orthodoxy says "hogwash" to that (my words, not theirs. But that would sum up their attitude.) You come to know the Unknowable One in silence, not through thought.

The simple person accepts with faith and reveres what he does not understand. The problem with many people of a higher learning class is that they have to understand everything, which has a quasi-Gnostic flavor to it.

 

[Moses Medina]

No worries, I am guest on your forum, and am stating what my current position is and looking for yours. No offense will be taken.

Ill try to reword this though:

Correct me if I understood wrong but Theosis is the process of becoming god-like. How does this differ from Sanctification in the Lutheran sense? That is, salvation comes from grace, and the process after recieving the sacrament of baptism thus being saved, due to faith we enter the process of Sanctification which is the life long process of shedding our habotual sinful desires.
Now, when you say we are too scholary, is this question considered among that? I can grasp what you are saying that to accept church teachings are a matter of faith, but in the end what exactly are these teachings? If it is a simple search of what the church datgers said than i can start there. Not sure of this clarifies what I am trying to ask.

If I can say this kindly and "without teeth," the skepticism of the West comes from the scholastic underpinnings of Western thought based on Roman Catholic legalism and scholasticism. It is no accident that the Reformation was begun by two men who were at heart lawyers and scholastics. Roman Catholicism, as stated by Barlaam the Monk, states that through the intellect you come to know God.

Orthodoxy says "hogwash" to that (my words, not theirs. But that would sum up their attitude.) You come to know the Unknowable One in silence, not through thought.

The simple person accepts with faith and reveres what he does not understand. The problem with many people of a higher learning class is that they have to understand everything, which has a quasi-Gnostic flavor to it.

 

[Moses Medina]

Thank you for your response. I will visit the chapel nearby (30 minutes away) and open talks with the Priest there. I believe since ot os a chapel they have a priest that rotates around and so every other Sunday it is lay-led? Im in Kansas and this place is a wasteland, Ive never been a fan of this state. However as stated I will visot and have reached out to the person on the website for Orthodox inquirers.

oh we have catechisms, we just don't have a single one.

St Philaret of Moscow, Peter Moghila, Apostolos Makrakis, St Innocent of Moscow, St John of Damascus, Fr Thomas Hopko, St Gregory of Nyssa, etc have all written catechisms.

your best bet though, check out at Orthodox Church and talk to the priest about which catechism to check out.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hopefully Father Matt's post answered this for you....

What will fascinate you is that Orthodoxy isn't the mega-structured titan that Catholicism is with this one catechism centralized and quoted with proofs and arguments. Go from one parish to another and you'll find us of one accord, not because we have this one codified catechism from "headquarters," but because we're guided by the Holy Spirit! It'll truly surprise you!

One thing I had to let go of to become Orthodox was things such as these plus the one-size-fits-all approach to every single issue in my life that "headquarters" will solve for me. Meeting with my priest and working through things with prayer has CHANGED ME!

I really appreciate your response. I am aware there arent catechisms or Book of Concords for you all but are there any resources in addition to visiting a parish and tbe liturgy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for your response. I will visit the chapel nearby (30 minutes away) and open talks with the Priest there. I believe since ot os a chapel they have a priest that rotates around and so every other Sunday it is lay-led? Im in Kansas and this place is a wasteland, Ive never been a fan of this state. However as stated I will visot and have reached out to the person on the website for Orthodox inquirers.

good, I would love to hear how it goes

 

[~Anastasia~]

If I understood your previous statement (and what I've heard from other Lutherans, though admittedly I haven't explored as deeply as I would have liked) ...

Your idea of sanctification is something God does to you, in response to faith alone?

We would say rather that yes, it certainly requires the grace of God. Without His action and help, we can do nothing. But we aren't passive. Rather we must cooperate with God, and God uses our lives to help us be transformed. I'm not saying this well. But we pray, and it changes us. We give to others, and through that we become more giving. We love others actively, through that, we become less selfish. We fast, through putting down the flesh we overcome the power of temptation a bit more. Things like that. Of course there are also the Sacraments, with a more direct application of God's grace. But we don't systemize or try to measure any of it. Rather, the more a life is oriented toward God and the more we cooperate with Him, the more He can work in us. (Though not comparatively across people to measure either - God can suddenly do a big thing in one person - like Saul on the road to Damascus - or not.) Its more a general principle.

Rather than say "godlike" (which is technically correct though, since Christ is God) ... it might be better understood to say we are progressively transformed to be more Christlike. Ultimately we shall be very much like Him - not "God" ourselves of course, but very much like Him.

Mostly I think Lutherans differ from us in their passive approach, which I know is meant to not detract from God. But we are supposed to fast, discipline ourselves, study, pray, grow as Christians. It doesn't take away from God's glory that He allows our cooperation. In fact we sing often about God being "wondrous in His Saints" ... we know that whatever effects show forth are to the glory of God - not the human person involved.

No worries, I am guest on your forum, and am stating what my current position is and looking for yours. No offense will be taken.

Ill try to reword this though:

Correct me if I understood wrong but Theosis is the process of becoming god-like. How does this differ from Sanctification in the Lutheran sense? That is, salvation comes from grace, and the process after recieving the sacrament of baptism thus being saved, due to faith we enter the process of Sanctification which is the life long process of shedding our habotual sinful desires.
Now, when you say we are too scholary, is this question considered among that? I can grasp what you are saying that to accept church teachings are a matter of faith, but in the end what exactly are these teachings? If it is a simple search of what the church datgers said than i can start there. Not sure of this clarifies what I am trying to ask.

 

[LizaMarie]

I am a confessional WELS Lutheran,as well, looking East( and have been looking at Rome as well)
Baptized and confirmed LCMS many many years ago, did not attend church for about a decade,came back to Christianity by recommitting my life to Christ and attending a non-denominational church for a few years. However the lack of sacraments and liturgy and history began to bother me. (Plus the fact that they taught Pre-Trib Rapture as gospel, a view the early Christians did not teach)
It's a long story but I have returned to the Lutheranism of my youth, first ELCA, now WELS as the latter slid to far to the left, would be fine with LCMS but their isn't one close to me. The confessional Lutheran churches seem to me to be the best of Protestantism with strong Gospel preaching, Bible teaching and the Sacraments rightly administered. But- I really don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe Scripture is so important, but also there needs to be a visible church structure authority. After all, the early Christians had no New Testament set in Canon at first-The Church was their authority.
My Hubby is a former Baptist who converted to the Lutheran with me.
I, too have read parts of the BOC, and it's a long story I don't have time to go into now but due my interest in Early Christianity and pro life work got me started reading a lot of Catholic works, and we were thinking of going to the RC but came up against some roadblocks. (legalism)From there I saw there is 1500 years of Church History that we Lutherans ignore.
My big thing is Apostolic Succession, though. I really wonder if it isn't necessary, and we don't seem to have it in confessional Lutheranism.
Both the RC and the Orthodox churches seem to me to have valid Apostolic Succession and all 7 sacraments. I believe the Reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater in some cases, even though I think they were right to try to reform the Church.
Right now I'm looking East, even though I love my little Lutheran Church, I want the fullness of the faith and access to all the sacraments.
I'm not well read BTW. I'm still searching.
Plus I have read that life long Lutheran scholar Jarislov Pelikan(sp?) became Orthodox.

 

[Moses Medina]

We hold that salvation (justification) is by God alone, and we are passive with that but sanctification is our cooperation with tbe Holy Spirit though we remain sinners. Thus just and sinner. Simultaneous being Holy through Christ and a Sinner due to the old adam clinging to us that wont die off until our own death and us being made perfect in the resurrection.

If I understood your previous statement (and what I've heard from other Lutherans, though admittedly I haven't explored as deeply as I would have liked) ...

Your idea of sanctification is something God does to you, in response to faith alone?

We would say rather that yes, it certainly requires the grace of God. Without His action and help, we can do nothing. But we aren't passive. Rather we must cooperate with God, and God uses our lives to help us be transformed. I'm not saying this well. But we pray, and it changes us. We give to others, and through that we become more giving. We love others actively, through that, we become less selfish. We fast, through putting down the flesh we overcome the power of temptation a bit more. Things like that. Of course there are also the Sacraments, with a more direct application of God's grace. But we don't systemize or try to measure any of it. Rather, the more a life is oriented toward God and the more we cooperate with Him, the more He can work in us. (Though not comparatively across people to measure either - God can suddenly do a big thing in one person - like Saul on the road to Damascus - or not.) Its more a general principle.

Rather than say "godlike" (which is technically correct though, since Christ is God) ... it might be better understood to say we are progressively transformed to be more Christlike. Ultimately we shall be very much like Him - not "God" ourselves of course, but very much like Him.

Mostly I think Lutherans differ from us in their passive approach, which I know is meant to not detract from God. But we are supposed to fast, discipline ourselves, study, pray, grow as Christians. It doesn't take away from God's glory that He allows our cooperation. In fact we sing often about God being "wondrous in His Saints" ... we know that whatever effects show forth are to the glory of God - not the human person involved.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We hold that salvation (justification) is by God alone, and we are passive with that but sanctification is our cooperation with tbe Holy Spirit though we remain sinners. Thus just and sinner. Simultaneous being Holy through Christ and a Sinner due to the old adam clinging to us that wont die off until our own death and us being made perfect in the resurrection.

Ah - so sanctification is only a legal definition and not an actual change of the person?

 

[LizaMarie]

I'll approach you a bit differently than others here perhaps. First of all, the LCMS are good folks. I'm Orthodox as are my wife and kids, but my children all attend an LCMS Lutheran private school. Wonderful teachers, awesome principal, good folks.

Your Biblical knowledge IS AN ASSET! While I'm not a fan of sola scriptura (or any of the "solas" for that matter), I'm a Bible junkie. I come from a Catholic background where the average person you're standing next to at Mass is utterly clueless. I am self-taught in Scripture. I got so deep into it that it was of great comfort and aid in my journey to Orthodoxy. I am sad to say that many in Orthodoxy are biblically illiterate. That bugs me. Here we are in the TRUE Church that the Lord built, and yet we are not where we should be in Biblical knowledge. Your knowledge would only be accentuated, broadened, and given extreme insight by the Orthodox Church. If you combine your biblical awareness with the commentaries of the Fathers and the homilies of the Church along with the oral tradition histories of Orthodoxy, it will truly open your eyes. Orthodoxy has really given me the full spectrum of holistic biblical Christianity!

Martin Luther was a product of his time. I think you'll find that there isn't the hostility toward Luther in Orthodoxy that there is in Catholicism. Terms like "Martin Loser" won't be used. While we disagree with Luther's extreme reaction to Catholicism, we agree that he was right to be appalled at the abuses he witnessed as well as the awful theology of his day. He was a courageous man in many ways, and had a keen intellect and ability to analyze the Bible. He just came to some conclusions we disagree with. It's too bad he didn't go East in his rebellion and find the fullness of the Faith in Orthodoxy!

You'll see in Orthodoxy that we have a different take on the expulsion from paradise, sin, Original Sin, grace, the Atonement, etc. But I will say our "take" is the ORIGINAL TAKE that the Fathers and the Apostles left behind. Any one of the good people in TAW would be qualified to explain those things to you whether it be Father Matt or Prodromos, Rob, Anastasia, Anhelyna, etc. Good people with keen minds for the faith.

Orthodoxy is holistic. It is not Bible-alone or anything-alone. It is comprehensive and broad, taking in 2,000 years of biblical scholarship, asceticism, inspiration, prayer, councils, reactions to heresies, and other things. The Church has been through a lot, but she remains in tact and as inspirational and powerful spiritually as ever.

I would say that Orthodoxy is different than ALL the other 'denominations' that sprang from Catholicism because we are not just theological outside of Church then worshipful inside of Church. Orthodoxy is BOTH theologically didactic and worshipful inside the Church on Sunday at our liturgy. You can actually follow our Divine Liturgy like a roadmap to learn what the True Faith is all about. It is a combination, a snowball, of rich teaching and theology all within the confines of worship. And as you look at our icons on the ceiling, in front of you, to your sides, behind you, you will be taught and inspired. When you pray with us, same thing. So Orthodoxy is experiential. Give it a visit, a try. You'll be mind-blown.

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

So glad you're here in TAW. Hope you'll stay and may God bless you! We'd LOVE to see you take the journey to our faith. You have a lot to bring to us! God bless!

 

[LizaMarie]

^^^My children attended WELS elementary from Pre-K through middle school(and 3rd grade for m youngest the school closed) only going to public later. I must say the confessional Lutheran education is excellent and Bible centered, in our rural area we had many non Lutherans attending.
When we were seriously looking at the RCC, I was a bit dismayed at the lack of Bible knowledge and general knowledge about the faith that my children's RC friends seemed to have.
And then I hear anecdotal stories about not being taught the Bible in the RC education classes-not sure that was true, and I know parents play a big part-but- after reading a conversion story of a figure from RC to EO because he was worried his children were not getting the proper Christian education in the RC maybe we made the right decision to keep them in the Lutheran school.
I hope this doesn't offend any Catholics reading this. My sons have Catholic friends that are wonderful Christians. When we were considering the RC my oldest son was upset as he loved his school and said his RC friends knew nothing about the Bible.
I am still very impressed with the CCC, just what I've heard about their Christian education of today is not good.

 

[Moses Medina]

Ah - so sanctification is only a legal definition and not an actual change of the person?

We would hold that it is a change of a person, but keep in mind we Lutherans hold to original sin and thus remain in a sinful state no matter how much we abstain from habitual or realized sin.

Side note its been great talking things through and I look forward to more!

 

[Moses Medina]

Thank you for sharing, my major dillema is I fully hold that the confessions to be true. But there is this overwhelming want to explore orthpdpxy and learn, and then the problems we as Lutherans do have whoch are in common with protestantism.

Then the question pokes through, "am I really being my own pope"

I am a confessional WELS Lutheran,as well, looking East( and have been looking at Rome as well)
Baptized and confirmed LCMS many many years ago, did not attend church for about a decade,came back to Christianity by recommitting my life to Christ and attending a non-denominational church for a few years. However the lack of sacraments and liturgy and history began to bother me. (Plus the fact that they taught Pre-Trib Rapture as gospel, a view the early Christians did not teach)
It's a long story but I have returned to the Lutheranism of my youth, first ELCA, now WELS as the latter slid to far to the left, would be fine with LCMS but their isn't one close to me. The confessional Lutheran churches seem to me to be the best of Protestantism with strong Gospel preaching, Bible teaching and the Sacraments rightly administered. But- I really don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe Scripture is so important, but also there needs to be a visible church structure authority. After all, the early Christians had no New Testament set in Canon at first-The Church was their authority.
My Hubby is a former Baptist who converted to the Lutheran with me.
I, too have read parts of the BOC, and it's a long story I don't have time to go into now but due my interest in Early Christianity and pro life work got me started reading a lot of Catholic works, and we were thinking of going to the RC but came up against some roadblocks. (legalism)From there I saw there is 1500 years of Church History that we Lutherans ignore.
My big thing is Apostolic Succession, though. I really wonder if it isn't necessary, and we don't seem to have it in confessional Lutheranism.
Both the RC and the Orthodox churches seem to me to have valid Apostolic Succession and all 7 sacraments. I believe the Reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater in some cases, even though I think they were right to try to reform the Church.
Right now I'm looking East, even though I love my little Lutheran Church, I want the fullness of the faith and access to all the sacraments.
I'm not well read BTW. I'm still searching.
Plus I have read that life long Lutheran scholar Jarislov Pelikan(sp?) became Orthodox.

 

[RobNJ]

We would hold that it is a change of a person, but keep in mind we Lutherans hold to original sin and thus remain in a sinful state no matter how much we abstain from habitual or realized sin.

Side note its been great talking things through and I look forward to more!

Luther was VERY much an Augustinian in his views on Original Sin (As an Augustinian Monk, you might expect that). There is a significant, and VERY comforting difference between that, and the traditional view of the Orthodox Church.. This explains it a bit better than I can:

https://oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin

(9 years of Lutheran grade school, and former Calvinist, here)

 

[Moses Medina]

What is thr difference between tbe antiochian orthodox church of america and the orthodox church of America? Are there any titles to be weary of that hold the orthpdox name here in the states?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is thr difference between tbe antiochian orthodox church of america and the orthodox church of America? Are there any titles to be weary of that hold the orthpdox name here in the states?

no substantive difference. Antiochians are more Arab flavor whereas the OCA is more rural Russia. both tend to be very American though.

Poserdoxy to be wary of are any jurisdiction with an alphabet soup name, especially if they insist on being Genuine or True. those guys are Old Calendarist schismatics.

 

[Moses Medina]

Thank you father for your input.

no substantive difference. Antiochians are more Arab flavor whereas the OCA is more rural Russia. both tend to be very American though.

Poserdoxy to be wary of are any jurisdiction with an alphabet soup name, especially if they insist on being Genuine or True. those guys are Old Calendarist schismatics.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you father for your input.

no probs