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Moses Medina

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Hello all. Thr Lord be with you all, to introduce myself, I came from a Pentecostal/charasmatic background. I was batized at 14 and stayed in the church body until I was 18, and I left it until the age of 26 where I reconverted back into the Christian faith.

While researching and studying on the origins of each church body I could find and comparing it to scripture and finally... I came across the book of concord. I held that this confession of faith was historical, biblically accurate, and that Lutheranism was catholic.

I still hold this to be true... Though I did stumble across Orthodoxy and RCC I held that Lutheranism was truth completed.

As stated I still hold the LCMS to be biblically sound and consider myself confessional.
But I am struggling, unity is embarrasing among Lutherans... I feel like the western church is in shambles... And that even the LCMS is fighting inhouse between being too Confessional among the Liberal in our church body.

So I look back on Orthodoxy and it looks appealing... But then as I said I subscribe to the BoC. I dont know... Ill see where this conversatio leads us.
 
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HTacianas

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Hello all. Thr Lord be with you all, to introduce myself, I came from a Pentecostal/charasmatic background. I was batized at 14 and stayed in the church body until I was 18, and I left it until the age of 26 where I reconverted back into the Christian faith.

While researching and studying on the origins of each church body I could find and comparing it to scripture and finally... I came across the book of concord. I held that this confession of faith was historical, biblically accurate, and that Lutheranism was catholic.

I still hold this to be true... Though I did stumble across Orthodoxy and RCC I held that Lutheranism was truth completed.

As stated I still hold the LCMS to be biblically sound and consider myself confessional.
But I am struggling, unity is embarrasing among Lutherans... I feel like the western church is in shambles... And that even the LCMS is fighting inhouse between being too Confessional among the Liberal in our church body.

So I look back on Orthodoxy and it looks appealing... But then as I said I subscribe to the BoC. I dont know... Ill see where this conversatio leads us.

Hello. Congratulations on your studies. I followed the same path to Orthodoxy. I was born into the Baptist church and baptized there, then for years attended a couple of Pentecostal churches with my family. I eventually stopped going to church altogether for years.

In wanting to return, I found too many "holes" in what I understood Christianity to be, i.e., protestantism.

After years of searching, I've found all of the questions I've ever had have been answered by Orthodoxy.
 
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JIMINZ

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After years of searching, I've found all of the questions I've ever had have been answered by Orthodoxy.

I don't mean to be disrespectful of your beliefs, but.

Just what were all of the questions you found answers to in Orthodoxy?

I have heard this kind of statement before, about Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, and I don't understand what it is everyone was looking for.
 
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HTacianas

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I don't mean to be disrespectful of your beliefs, but.

Just what were all of the questions you found answers to in Orthodoxy?

I have heard this kind of statement before, about Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, and I don't understand what it is everyone was looking for.

I suppose the first question would have been "is it possible for a Christian to forfeit salvation"? The answer is "yes". It is unequivocally stated so in the bible, but preachers and others I looked to told me no, it isn't possible.

That was just my starting point, and became something of a yardstick to guage what I read and was told.

This discussion could go on forever, but to keep it short, I found that I didn't want to be my own "pope" and follow in the error of those graduates of two or three years of Sunday school who claim for themselves all power to define the Christian faith.

I have chosen to follow the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils and those who have been granted their authority by Jesus Christ.
 
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Light of the East

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I don't mean to be disrespectful of your beliefs, but.

Just what were all of the questions you found answers to in Orthodoxy?

I have heard this kind of statement before, about Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, and I don't understand what it is everyone was looking for.

What I see in Orthodoxy that is highly appealing to me as a potential convert to it is the following:

1. Orthodoxy really presents God as loving Father who has this wonderful plan for all mankind - that we may be changed into "gods." Not God (THE God), but "gods," that is, to be like Jesus Christ. In Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, what you get about God is a heavy (often very heavy) does of God as Judge and the one who tortures sinners eternally. (something else Orthodoxy does not teach). God is love. Orthodoxy believes it.

2. Orthodoxy has held to the teachings of the Early Church the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the Early Fathers. Roman Catholicism drifted away from them, beginning with Augustines anthropological musings on "original sin" and the idea that everyone is born automatically damned because of bearing the guilt of Adam. Then they came up with other new ideas such as the Immaculate Conception, papal authority, and Indulgences (which eventually kicked off the Protestant Reformation).

3. Orthodoxy is a beautiful religion. The Novus Ordo Mass, even when they try to do it right by tossing in a little Latin and some decent songs, is still a Protestantized mess. Protestantism, especially in Fundamentalism and Charismatic circles, is a Wild West free-for-all where you never know what you are going to get on a Sunday.

4. Orthodoxy, unlike Protestantism, honors the saints. These members of the family of God, these heroes who often suffered mightily for the faith, are honored through the year. We have their icons in our parishes, where the Protestant churches have bare walls, which speaks to the idea of no communion of the saints. Icons are the saints with us as we walk this journey.

5. In Orthodoxy I can worship with my whole body. Incense, prostrations, akathist prayers, icons, all of these things and more involve my whole body in worship. Protestantism is kind of Gnostic in their fear of using anything physical in worship.

6. Orthodoxy has not dumped the ascetic practices of fasting which are meant to help us control the passions of our bodies and draw us closer to Christ. In Orthodoxy, fasting is done 4 times a year. You can't even get a Roman Catholic to give up meat on Friday anymore. Roman Catholicism (and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh and judgmental) to me appeals to lazy people who want to go to church and say a Rosary and think they are in good stead with God because of that. Pray 5 first Saturdays and the Blessed Virgin guarantees you will go to heaven. Ditto for the idea that if the Divine Mercy chaplet is said at the bedside of a dying relative, Christ will assure that this person gets to heaven. Never mind that the dying relative may have spent his/her whole life ignoring God and is no closer to Christlikeness than my dog. That sort of thing seems to border more on superstition than faith which works in love (ascesis).

I am not saying that there are not good people who are striving to do right and be holy in Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. It is system, however, which in my opinion is working against them.
 
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Light of the East

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You need to discard this belief in biblicism. The bible is a constituency of the wider Christian tradition and outside it it's just a book.

To whom are you speaking?
 
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Chesterton

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I held that this confession of faith was historical, biblically accurate, and that Lutheranism was catholic.
Don't stop there. Keep studying the history. Someone once said, if you learn enough history, you'll eventually become Orthodox. :) It was true in my case.
 
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Moses Medina

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I fully understand your position on this, as a pentecostal that was what we had, our pastor and floppy bibles.

As a Lutheran I think the BoC is a great exposition of scripture and it is what converted me. I realize if I were to convert I would have to put that mindset aside and accept both tradition and scripture.

I know Im not asking questions right now, I am basically seeing where this conversation goes and will go from there.
 
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Okay, heres my first question. What makes you united? Are the orthodox united on matters of faith between the greek and russian etc and what are those matters?

To the Lutheran, the BoC and gospel unite us. Even as flawed as our unity is.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Okay, heres my first question. What makes you united? Are the orthodox united on matters of faith between the greek and russian etc and what are those matters?

To the Lutheran, the BoC and gospel unite us. Even as flawed as our unity is.

we have the same experience of the risen Lord as the Apostles, the same Creed, the same Chalice
 
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I'll approach you a bit differently than others here perhaps. First of all, the LCMS are good folks. I'm Orthodox as are my wife and kids, but my children all attend an LCMS Lutheran private school. Wonderful teachers, awesome principal, good folks.

Your Biblical knowledge IS AN ASSET! While I'm not a fan of sola scriptura (or any of the "solas" for that matter), I'm a Bible junkie. I come from a Catholic background where the average person you're standing next to at Mass is utterly clueless. I am self-taught in Scripture. I got so deep into it that it was of great comfort and aid in my journey to Orthodoxy. I am sad to say that many in Orthodoxy are biblically illiterate. That bugs me. Here we are in the TRUE Church that the Lord built, and yet we are not where we should be in Biblical knowledge. Your knowledge would only be accentuated, broadened, and given extreme insight by the Orthodox Church. If you combine your biblical awareness with the commentaries of the Fathers and the homilies of the Church along with the oral tradition histories of Orthodoxy, it will truly open your eyes. Orthodoxy has really given me the full spectrum of holistic biblical Christianity!

Martin Luther was a product of his time. I think you'll find that there isn't the hostility toward Luther in Orthodoxy that there is in Catholicism. Terms like "Martin Loser" won't be used. While we disagree with Luther's extreme reaction to Catholicism, we agree that he was right to be appalled at the abuses he witnessed as well as the awful theology of his day. He was a courageous man in many ways, and had a keen intellect and ability to analyze the Bible. He just came to some conclusions we disagree with. It's too bad he didn't go East in his rebellion and find the fullness of the Faith in Orthodoxy!

You'll see in Orthodoxy that we have a different take on the expulsion from paradise, sin, Original Sin, grace, the Atonement, etc. But I will say our "take" is the ORIGINAL TAKE that the Fathers and the Apostles left behind. Any one of the good people in TAW would be qualified to explain those things to you whether it be Father Matt or Prodromos, Rob, Anastasia, Anhelyna, etc. Good people with keen minds for the faith.

Orthodoxy is holistic. It is not Bible-alone or anything-alone. It is comprehensive and broad, taking in 2,000 years of biblical scholarship, asceticism, inspiration, prayer, councils, reactions to heresies, and other things. The Church has been through a lot, but she remains in tact and as inspirational and powerful spiritually as ever.

I would say that Orthodoxy is different than ALL the other 'denominations' that sprang from Catholicism because we are not just theological outside of Church then worshipful inside of Church. Orthodoxy is BOTH theologically didactic and worshipful inside the Church on Sunday at our liturgy. You can actually follow our Divine Liturgy like a roadmap to learn what the True Faith is all about. It is a combination, a snowball, of rich teaching and theology all within the confines of worship. And as you look at our icons on the ceiling, in front of you, to your sides, behind you, you will be taught and inspired. When you pray with us, same thing. So Orthodoxy is experiential. Give it a visit, a try. You'll be mind-blown.

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

So glad you're here in TAW. Hope you'll stay and may God bless you! We'd LOVE to see you take the journey to our faith. You have a lot to bring to us! God bless!

Hello all. Thr Lord be with you all, to introduce myself, I came from a Pentecostal/charasmatic background. I was batized at 14 and stayed in the church body until I was 18, and I left it until the age of 26 where I reconverted back into the Christian faith.

While researching and studying on the origins of each church body I could find and comparing it to scripture and finally... I came across the book of concord. I held that this confession of faith was historical, biblically accurate, and that Lutheranism was catholic.

I still hold this to be true... Though I did stumble across Orthodoxy and RCC I held that Lutheranism was truth completed.

As stated I still hold the LCMS to be biblically sound and consider myself confessional.
But I am struggling, unity is embarrasing among Lutherans... I feel like the western church is in shambles... And that even the LCMS is fighting inhouse between being too Confessional among the Liberal in our church body.

So I look back on Orthodoxy and it looks appealing... But then as I said I subscribe to the BoC. I dont know... Ill see where this conversatio leads us.
 
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We are united by our patriarchs, bishops, clergy, the faith of the ancient Fathers, common beautiful liturgy, canons, Creed, Councils, etc.

Okay, heres my first question. What makes you united? Are the orthodox united on matters of faith between the greek and russian etc and what are those matters?

To the Lutheran, the BoC and gospel unite us. Even as flawed as our unity is.
 
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I really appreciate your response. I am aware there arent catechisms or Book of Concords for you all but are there any resources in addition to visiting a parish and tbe liturgy?

I'll approach you a bit differently than others here perhaps. First of all, the LCMS are good folks. I'm Orthodox as are my wife and kids, but my children all attend an LCMS Lutheran private school. Wonderful teachers, awesome principal, good folks.

Your Biblical knowledge IS AN ASSET! While I'm not a fan of sola scriptura (or any of the "solas" for that matter), I'm a Bible junkie. I come from a Catholic background where the average person you're standing next to at Mass is utterly clueless. I am self-taught in Scripture. I got so deep into it that it was of great comfort and aid in my journey to Orthodoxy. I am sad to say that many in Orthodoxy are biblically illiterate. That bugs me. Here we are in the TRUE Church that the Lord built, and yet we are not where we should be in Biblical knowledge. Your knowledge would only be accentuated, broadened, and given extreme insight by the Orthodox Church. If you combine your biblical awareness with the commentaries of the Fathers and the homilies of the Church along with the oral tradition histories of Orthodoxy, it will truly open your eyes. Orthodoxy has really given me the full spectrum of holistic biblical Christianity!

Martin Luther was a product of his time. I think you'll find that there isn't the hostility toward Luther in Orthodoxy that there is in Catholicism. Terms like "Martin Loser" won't be used. While we disagree with Luther's extreme reaction to Catholicism, we agree that he was right to be appalled at the abuses he witnessed as well as the awful theology of his day. He was a courageous man in many ways, and had a keen intellect and ability to analyze the Bible. He just came to some conclusions we disagree with. It's too bad he didn't go East in his rebellion and find the fullness of the Faith in Orthodoxy!

You'll see in Orthodoxy that we have a different take on the expulsion from paradise, sin, Original Sin, grace, the Atonement, etc. But I will say our "take" is the ORIGINAL TAKE that the Fathers and the Apostles left behind. Any one of the good people in TAW would be qualified to explain those things to you whether it be Father Matt or Prodromos, Rob, Anastasia, Anhelyna, etc. Good people with keen minds for the faith.

Orthodoxy is holistic. It is not Bible-alone or anything-alone. It is comprehensive and broad, taking in 2,000 years of biblical scholarship, asceticism, inspiration, prayer, councils, reactions to heresies, and other things. The Church has been through a lot, but she remains in tact and as inspirational and powerful spiritually as ever.

I would say that Orthodoxy is different than ALL the other 'denominations' that sprang from Catholicism because we are not just theological outside of Church then worshipful inside of Church. Orthodoxy is BOTH theologically didactic and worshipful inside the Church on Sunday at our liturgy. You can actually follow our Divine Liturgy like a roadmap to learn what the True Faith is all about. It is a combination, a snowball, of rich teaching and theology all within the confines of worship. And as you look at our icons on the ceiling, in front of you, to your sides, behind you, you will be taught and inspired. When you pray with us, same thing. So Orthodoxy is experiential. Give it a visit, a try. You'll be mind-blown.

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

So glad you're here in TAW. Hope you'll stay and may God bless you! We'd LOVE to see you take the journey to our faith. You have a lot to bring to us! God bless!
 
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ArmyMatt

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I really appreciate your response. I am aware there arent catechisms or Book of Concords for you all but are there any resources in addition to visiting a parish and tbe liturgy?

oh we have catechisms, we just don't have a single one.

St Philaret of Moscow, Peter Moghila, Apostolos Makrakis, St Innocent of Moscow, St John of Damascus, Fr Thomas Hopko, St Gregory of Nyssa, etc have all written catechisms.

your best bet though, check out at Orthodox Church and talk to the priest about which catechism to check out.
 
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Hello all. Thr Lord be with you all, to introduce myself, I came from a Pentecostal/charasmatic background. I was batized at 14 and stayed in the church body until I was 18, and I left it until the age of 26 where I reconverted back into the Christian faith.

While researching and studying on the origins of each church body I could find and comparing it to scripture and finally... I came across the book of concord. I held that this confession of faith was historical, biblically accurate, and that Lutheranism was catholic.

I still hold this to be true... Though I did stumble across Orthodoxy and RCC I held that Lutheranism was truth completed.

As stated I still hold the LCMS to be biblically sound and consider myself confessional.
But I am struggling, unity is embarrasing among Lutherans... I feel like the western church is in shambles... And that even the LCMS is fighting inhouse between being too Confessional among the Liberal in our church body.

So I look back on Orthodoxy and it looks appealing... But then as I said I subscribe to the BoC. I dont know... Ill see where this conversatio leads us.
Hello and welcome to TAW. :)

We are happy to have you join us. Conversation about these things is good - God leads us as we are ready and many of us have come from different backgrounds or even through many backgrounds to get where we are now.

Lutheranism has a lot of good teaching and can provide a good foundation to Orthodoxy. In some cases we would say it is missing some things Orthodoxy has retained, so could be fuller. And we disagree on a few points. But largely I think Luther made good steps as far as objecting to Catholic errors of his day. Too bad communications were so slow in that day - do you know he approached the Orthodox (by letters)?

We welcome you to discuss these things, and as you say, see how it goes. :)

Okay, heres my first question. What makes you united? Are the orthodox united on matters of faith between the greek and russian etc and what are those matters?

To the Lutheran, the BoC and gospel unite us. Even as flawed as our unity is.

We are united in - essentially everything that matters. We share the same Communion, the same Theology, the same praxis (mostly), the same Liturgy, the same Church cycle of feasts and readings, and so on. It is easier in fact to talk about how we are not exactly the same.

Russian chant and Byzantine chant sound different, and there can be other stylistic differences in the music (not the actual content though). There are different languages used in different parishes - ideally to reflect the languages of those who attend (so it's often a mixture, as in the case of ours, which is founded by and half filled with immigrants). The Russian iconostasis is usually taller. We might favor and emphasize different Saints. Crossed arms over the chest mean ready for Communion to some, and refraining to others. Some bow more deeply. The exact rules of how we fast can vary just slightly. That's about the extent of it.

Our parish (Greek Orthodox) has Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians, and middle-eastern Orthodox all worshipping together with no problems. We even have Ethiopians though they are not strictly in communion with us - for the sake of their children they are raising them EO.

You do hear outlier voices stirring up some issues, as I suspect that's your real concern with Lutheranism. But such issues (such as same-sex attraction, women's ordination, etc.) are firmly opposed by the Church, despite some attempts out there to undermine. We do have a very loving and pastoral approach on issues, but that means embracing persons (and sometimes correcting them), not enfolding their sin into our foundations - which foundations cannot change.

Again, welcome. I pray you find what you need. :)
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="gurneyhalleck1

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

Not .02 cents, my friend. That is a $100 HEART of the matter, at least to me. In looking over my life, I find that the shackles of fear created by God as the infinitely angry Judge, rather than as loving Father leading His children deeper into theosis, created in me a deep spiritual sickness that I am still trying to get over. What I see in Western theology is nothing less than what Emperor Justinian said regarding the idea of Patristic Universalism - that if they believe in this, they will become lazy, sinful, and indulgent. So the sinners must be kept in line by the whip of fear, rather than led by the gentle voice of the loving Shepherd.

Who can find a God who in your deepest heart you fear rather than love? How can you find the Uncreated Light when you expect that this Light will burn you rather than caress you? And as a corollary, how can you show anything but judgment to others when you yourself walk around feeling you are always under judgment.

Yeah, that paragraph struck a deep chord in me.
 
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What you said makes sense. Just to put it out there though confessional lutheranism is very skeptical of the mystical though we do believe the blessed Eucharist to be a mystery as is Baptism. But we dont define it as a relationship with God in the sense that evangelicalism does. To us it is an action initiated by God to give us his gifts of grace through tangible means. We taste and we remember our baptism, we hear the word and thus our feelings are put to the side to fully accept the promises of God, for our feelings can betray us.


QUOTE="gurneyhalleck1

One thing I can say we Orthodox have in common with you Lutherans is that we see the relationship with the Lord as A RELATIONSHIP. But I would suggest our relationship is even deeper because we shed the shackles, the handcuffs, the chains of LEGALISM that the West has. And Lutheranism focuses on ideas of Luther like total human depravity and the idea that the Original Sin is so utterly profoundin us that there is nothing good whatsoever about us......which necessitates a courtroom drama of sorts in which Christ takes the punishment we deserve. Grace in Lutheranism is a covering OVER of our sins. Luther called it a pile of manure clothed in a wedding dress. That is definitely not Orthodoxy. When you contrast the type of grace you see in Lutheranism and Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy, it is different. We don't see grace as a created commodity. It is an extension of God Himself! His Uncreated Light (which we see in the Transfiguration today at Liturgy!) is an extension of who He is, not some created commodity to help us out. He shares Himself. In Lutheranism you see IMPUTATION! God doesn't change you or take away your sins. Your sins are so profound that they're in you like a bullet that is stuck. So God covers over the sin with His Son's Atonement and grace in that way so God the Father doesn't see your filth, only His Son. Nowhere in the Ancient Church does anyone speak in such a manner. Instead, that imputation of grace is replaced by the ancients with actual SANCTIFYING Grace! God actually DOES take away your sins, and so a real legitimate change is made in you! Grace, God Himself, transforms you as a person. It is a journey, not a onetime event or declaration.

Anyway, just my two cents (or fifty).

Not .02 cents, my friend. That is a $100 HEART of the matter, at least to me. In looking over my life, I find that the shackles of fear created by God as the infinitely angry Judge, rather than as loving Father leading His children deeper into theosis, created in me a deep spiritual sickness that I am still trying to get over. What I see in Western theology is nothing less than what Emperor Justinian said regarding the idea of Patristic Universalism - that if they believe in this, they will become lazy, sinful, and indulgent. So the sinners must be kept in line by the whip of fear, rather than led by the gentle voice of the loving Shepherd.

Who can find a God who in your deepest heart you fear rather than love? How can you find the Uncreated Light when you expect that this Light will burn you rather than caress you? And as a corollary, how can you show anything but judgment to others when you yourself walk around feeling you are always under judgment.

Yeah, that paragraph struck a deep chord in me.
 
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