Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

For is a man who cheats on his wife really truly sorry over his sin with his wife if he just says he is sorry all the time to her and yet he continues to cheat on her on occasion the rest of his life? No, of course not. Why would folks think it is any different with God?
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Again, you are NOT providing an accurate example here. If a man cheats on his wife, and continues to cheat on her (even though he apologies), he is a man continually living in sin. I would equate this individual as being an unbeliever, because he demonstrates an unrepentant heart. Also, without knowing the condition of a man's heart and his relationship with God, I can not say for certain if this man is a child of God or not. No one can say for certain, but by his works he is not one of us. Try again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You don't have to believe or make the claim that "sin is okay with God" for it to be a reality;

Well, then just get over it. Because it's NO ONE'S reality here. Only in your own mind.

I believe your belief in and of itself already states that for you (Whether you are able to see it or not).

1 Jn 1:8 describes you to a T. Self deceived and the truth is not in you. So whatever you "see" is from your own self deception.

For you believe that a believer will always sin the rest of their life (with confessing of that sin).

I believe what the Bible teaches. That we are sinners, saved by grace. Another words you seem to have no grasp of.

Granted, you believe that the believer will not sin all the time without impunity but that he will only sin on occasion. Is that correct?

No one "sins without impunity". But some believers will sin more than not.

However, the problem I have with this type of belief is that if one makes an allowance for sin in their belief (even if it is just a litte bit of sin), then that means God must also make an allowance that such a thing is acceptable to Him because He will save them despite their acknowledgment that they will sin the rest of their lives here on this Earth (Whether that sin be on occasion or whether that sin is done all the time).....

This is funny. You yourself have "made an allowance for sin". In post #2344, where you admitted that you still sin. How is that not an allowance for sin. And you're hoping for the day that you actually cease from sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, you are NOT providing an accurate example here. First off a man who cheats on his wife, and continues to cheat on her continually (even though he apologies) is a man continually living in sin. I would equate this individual as being an unbeliever, because he demonstrates an unrepentant heart. Second, without knowing the condition of a man's heart and his relationship with God, I can not say for certain if this man is a child of God. Try again.

Please take note that I said that this man who cheated on his wife only did so on OCCASION which lines up with the type of belief that you agreed with me on. For you said that you agreed that a believer can sin on OCCASION as long as he confesses his sin (or says he is sorry to God). You also said that you believe the saint will never be able to stop sinning (Which is what the man who cheats on his wife does).

So I see no difference between this real world example and your belief.


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[GillDouglas]

@Jason0047 , so you assume occasional sin means the same repeated sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, then just get over it. Because it's NO ONE'S reality here. Only in your own mind.

Then you need to convince me. Not just with the Scriptures but by providing me with a real world example so as to illustrate how your belief is truthful and good.

1 Jn 1:8 describes you to a T.

Actually 1 John 1:8 is talking about declaring how sin does not exist. Both Christian Scientists and Antinomians believe sin does not exist on a spiritual level for them.

I believe what the Bible teaches. That we are sinners, saved by grace. Another words you seem to have no grasp of.

And I am glad I do not have a grasp of such a belief because it is absolutely horrifying and scary to even comprehend that such a belief would be moral or good on any level. If you disagree, then please use a real world example to help to show me how it is moral and good.

No one "sins without impunity".

On the contrary, I have encountered believers both in person and online who do believe in such a thing.

This is funny. You yourself have "made an allowance for sin". In post #2344, where you admitted that you still sin. How is that not an allowance for sin. And you're hoping for the day that you actually cease from sin.

Nowhere did I say that I have made an allowance for sin. Men honestly stumbling into sin so as to overcome it does not equate in making an allowance for a believer to agree with sin and or that they want to continue in that kind of life style. But the believer who says they will always sin in this life is agreeing that they want to continue in sinning on some level. They do not want to believe those verses in Scripture that tell them that they can stop. For with God all things are possible. For we are to walk as Jesus had walked.


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[GillDouglas]

Please take note that I said that this man who cheated on his wife only did so on OCCASION which lines up with the type of belief that you agreed with me on. For you said that you agreed that a believer can sin on OCCASION as long as he confesses his sin (or says he is sorry to God). You also said that you believe the saint will never be able to stop sinning (Which is what the man who cheats on his wife does).

So I see no difference between this real world example and your belief.


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So you would disregard what I just said about your example and say that it lines up with my 'type' of belief? Yes, a believer can on occasion sin JUST LIKE YOU! A believer should recognize the sin, confess it and repent, meaning that through the working of the Holy Spirit never fall victim to the same sin. A believer should not fall back into the same sin, but there is always the possibility that they might and that believer will certainly be tempted by other sin. Again, your example is flawed and using it to explain what we believe is pointless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 , so you assume occasional sin means the same repeated sin?

God does not care about the difference between what type of sin you are committing if it is the type of sin that leads unto spiritual death. Murder, hating, theft, drunkenness, adultery, and idolatry are all sins that will cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Sinning on occasion is any spiritual death type of sin down on occasion thru the rest of a person's life (Whether they sinned every couple of months or whether they sinned every couple of years). For is a murderer any less a murderer if he murdered every decade? No. Of course not.


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[Marvin Knox]

Well, do you believe that my belief is characterized as being one who is amongst.... "true believers"? I imagine not.

You've crawfished so much here lately that I don't know exactly what you believe.

I'll know more about what I think about your beliefs after you've answered my question. Please do answer in a straight forward manner.

One question - if a believer commits a willful sin and dies for some reason before he has confessed and repented of that sin - is he saved when he crosses over or lost?

That's a straight forward question and I want a straight forward answer.

It is not wrong to point out false beliefs as long as it is done in love and respect. Do you believe it is wrong to correct others or to point out false beliefs? ...

Of course not.

Answer my question and stop flopping around and then I'll either rebuke you (as I am told to do in scripture) or I may agree with you.

I've rebuked you in the past when you were humming a different tune than now. We'll see how it goes - assuming you will be honest and upfront.

 

[GillDouglas]

God does not care about the difference between what type of sin you are committing if it is the type of sin that leads unto spiritual death. Murder, hating, theft, drunkenness, adultery, and idolatry are all sins that will cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Sinning on occasion is any spiritual death type of sin down on occasion thru the rest of a person's life (Whether they sinned every couple of months or whether they sinned every couple of years). For is a murderer any less a murderer if he murdered every decade? No. Of course not.
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That is not what I asked you. Is there a difference between a man occasionally falling victim to the SAME sin again and again versus a man who occasionally falls victim to sin again and again?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you would disregard what I just said about your example and say that it lines up with my 'type' of belief? Yes, a believer can on occasion sin JUST LIKE YOU! A believer should recognize the sin, confess it and repent, meaning that through the working of the Holy Spirit never fall victim to the same sin. A believer should not fall back into the same sin, but there is always the possibility that they might and that believer will certainly be tempted by other sin. Again, your example is flawed and using it to explain what we believe is pointless.

No, I do not believe just like you. The difference between our beliefs is this:

The man who cheats on his wife and says he is sorry will in time stop cheating on her thereby proving that he is genuinely sorry about his sin towards his wife.

However, your belief is like a man who cheats on his wife on OCCASION the rest of his life and says he is sorry to her and yet is he still within her good graces (despite that unfaithfulness).


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[Bible Highlighter]

That is not what I asked you. Is there a difference between a man occasionally falling victim to the SAME sin again and again versus a man who occasionally falls victim to sin again and again?

There is no difference between a man who sins all the time and who sins every few years. At some point they actually have to stop sinning. In other words, a murderer is still a murderer if he murders every decade for the rest of his life. But if that murderer expressed Godly sorrow towards God and he vowed to never murder again and actually stopped murdering, then he is no longer a murderer in God's eyes.


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[GillDouglas]

No, I do not believe just like you. The difference between our beliefs is this:

The man who cheats on his wife and says he is sorry will in time stop cheating on her thereby proving that he is genuinely sorry about his sin towards his wife.

However, your belief is like a man who cheats on his wife on OCCASION the rest of his life and says he is sorry to her and yet is he still within her good graces (despite that unfaithfulness).
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You just don't get it. Are you so blind and ignorant to truth? Do you even read what people post? You are wrong about what I believe, and wrong even still in your flawed example. A man who lives in unrepentant sin is going to Hell, plain and simple. A man who sins, repents of that sin vowing never to fall victim again to the same sin, is forgiven by God by the blood of Christ. In either scenario, his wife may or may not forgive him, but that has nothing to do with his salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Then what do you think crucify the affections and lusts actually means then what it says plainly in the text?

Fasting so as to overcome sin is different than fasting for other reasons.

Crucify the affections and lusts is what it says. This is talking about putting away sin. For what else can it be talking about?...

You are being silly now. I'm crucifying the flesh even now as I resist the temptation to get snotty with you.

That's not the same as sinless perfectionism.

And - I told you before - I have no need for you to instruct me about fasting for whatever reason I choose to fast.

Most do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism. So you response that you do not believe in it does not surprise me.

Yes, I do because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. ...

You apparently believe that your flesh will be made perfect while on this earth. I do not.

And I do not find this belief any different than those who think they can sin with no impunity and think they are saved.
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I assume that you meant with impunity and not no impunity.

If you don't see a difference in what I believe and teach and what so called Antinomians teach it is only because you misrepresent what I believe.

Stop sinning against me and others here or you will pay a price at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

[GillDouglas]

There is no difference between a man who sins all the time and who sins every few years. At some point they actually have to stop sinning. In other words, a murderer is still a murderer if he murders every decade for the rest of his life. But if that murderer expressed Godly sorrow towards God and he vowed to never murder again and actually stopped murdering, then he is no longer a murderer in God's eyes.
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You STILL have not answered my question. PAY ATTENTION!! You're using murder in both examples, instead of understanding that I'm talking about distinctly different sins. If a man cheats on his wife, repents and is forgiven that does not mean he will no longer sin in some other way. So I ask again, is there a difference between a man living in sin (the same unrepentant sin) and one who occasionally sins (sins for which he repents)?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please do answer in a straight forward manner.

"One question - if a believer commits a willful sin and dies for some reason before he has confessed and repented of that sin - is he saved when he crosses over or lost?

That's a straight forward question and I want a straight forward answer."​

If the believer dies in a sin that leads unto spiritual death (Like murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, lying, and idolatry) without confessing that sin, then they have died in their sins and are not saved. However, confession is not the only thing that is a part of our faith, though. We have to believe that we will forsake sin, too (See Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 1:7).

I've rebuked you in the past when you were humming a different tune than now. We'll see how it goes - assuming you will be honest and upfront.

I do not believe you have rebuked me. But you can believe whatever you like. It does not mean you are correct.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You STILL have not answered my question. PAY ATTENTION!! You're using murder in both examples, instead of understanding that I'm talking about distinctly different sins. If a man cheats on his wife, repents and is forgiven that does not mean he will no longer sin in some other way. So I ask again, is there a difference between a man living in sin (the same unrepentant sin) and one who occasionally sins (sins for which he repents)?

I have answered you. I said God does not treat one sin such as murder or adultery (cheating) as different sins. They are BOTH sins that lead unto spiritual death. So if you commit the sin of murder one decade and confess of it and then commit the sin of adultery the next decade and confess of it, and yet you also believed that you will continue to do some kind of other sin in the future again, then you are making an allowance for sin for your life (of which God cannot agree with in you doing). Why? Because there is no end in sight involving your sin. It is a stamp of approval on sin to always be in your life when the Scriptures tell us the exact opposite.

God is not splitting hairs on what type of spiritual death sin a believer might be commiting. Sin that leads unto spiritual death is all the same. It is a sin that leads to the Second Death which is the Lake of Fire.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You are being silly now. I'm crucifying the flesh even now as I resist the temptation to get snotty with you.

I believe you have already treated me inappropriately. Are you saying you are withholding back even more? I do not feel that way towards you. I am only wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus.

Anyways, Galatians 5:24 does not say, they that are Christ's have crucified SOME of the affections and lusts. The word "some" is not in there. It simply says "affections and lusts" meaning all "affections and lusts" will be crucified.

You apparently believe that your flesh will be made perfect while on this earth. I do not.

And I am not surprised you believe that way. It is a very popular belief that most people hold to.

I assume that you meant with impunity and not no impunity.

Thank you for catching the grammar error. I will re-edit my post.

If you don't see a difference in what I believe and teach and what so called Antinomians teach it is only because you misrepresent what I believe.

Stop sinning against me and others here or you will pay a price at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

If what you say is true, then you need to provide me with a real world example to prove to me that you belief is not Antinomian or immoral. I have asked this multiple times of most everyone here and they have failed to deliver.



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[Marvin Knox]

If the believer dies in a sin that leads unto spiritual death (Like murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, lying, and idolatry) without confessing that sin, then they have died in their sins and are not saved. However, confession is not the only thing that is a part of our faith, though. We have to believe that we will forsake sin, too (See Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 1:7).....

I believe, based on your answer, that you are preaching a different gospel than the one I received.

I rebuke you openly for that sin.

Just to clarify things even more for everyone - do you believe that "sinless perfection" must be attained in this life in order to be saved in the end?

 

[GillDouglas]

I have answered you. I said God does not treat one sin such as murder or adultery (cheating) as different sins.

No you didn't, but we can move on now, though I did ask your opinion not your opinion of what God thinks. Thanks for sharing anyway.

They are BOTH sins that lead unto spiritual death. So if you commit the sin of murder one decade and confess of it and then commit the sin of adultery the next decade and confess of it, and yet you also believed that you will continue to do some kind of other sin in the future again, then you are making an allowance for sin for your life (of which God cannot agree with in you doing).

You were heading in the right direction here, until you added your own twisted false belief (bold) in there. No true Christian plans to sin, or wants to so you can stop accusing believers of doing so.

Why? Because there is no end in sight involving your sin.

Apparently you know the date and time you'll stop sinning for good. Well I know the day I die I'll be free, but until then I'll rely on Christ to get through my struggles.

It is a stamp of approval on sin to always be in your life when the Scriptures tell us the exact opposite.

Putting words in peoples mouths, which has not been uncommon for you. I don't approve of ANY sin, but I'm not so ignorant or boastful (like you) to think I'm not prone to it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe, based on your answer, that you are preaching a different gospel than the one I received. Both Calvinism and OSAS are unbiblical.

I rebuke you openly for that sin.

And I reject your rebuke on the grounds that your belief cannot be found in the Bible; nor can it be made into a real world example.

Just to clarify things even more for everyone - do you believe that "sinless perfection" must be attained in this life in order to be saved in the end?

The Scriptures say he that endures to the end shall be saved. The Scriptures also say without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. But do I believe that all believers thru out time had to live perfectly sinless at some point in order to be saved? No. Every believer's case is different. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. The thief on the cross was saved. But that does not negate the truth that God calls us unto holiness and we are not to have the right mind set about agreeing with what it means to be holy. For one belief is set out to rid themselves of sin and the other is a belief that makes an allowance for sin (Which means that they are teaching to others that God can condone a believer's sin - Which is wrong).


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