Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

Then you need to convince me. Not just with the Scriptures but by providing me with a real world example so as to illustrate how your belief is truthful and good.

I have already given the real world example. Repeatedly. From Paul's own testimony in Romans 7.

Actually 1 John 1:8 is talking about declaring how sin does not exist.

That is delusional. It clearly says that those who say they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

Here is the verse from the NASB: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Let's break this down.

First, Paul tells Timothy that if either of them "we" make this claim:

Second, the claim: we have no sin

Third, those who do make that claim "are deceiving ourselves"

Fourth, and the truth is NOT in us.

Both Christian Scientists and Antinomians believe sin does not exist on a spiritual level for them.

And they have deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them.

And I am glad I do not have a grasp of such a belief because it is absolutely horrifying and scary to even comprehend that such a belief would be moral or good on any level. If you disagree, then please use a real world example to help to show me how it is moral and good.

What a ridiculous request. There are no real world examples that show that sin is either moral or good. It's real obvious that you haven't been paying any attention to anyone's posts.

On the contrary, I have encountered believers both in person and online who do believe in such a thing.

Anyone who claims they have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

Nowhere did I say that I have made an allowance for sin.

Again,you missed my point. No one says that. Esp those who disagree with your view of sinless perfection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A glaring example of your thought process. In your view, if a believer commits one sin, they are living in continual, constant sin. That doesn't even make sense! and no one accused you of that. It was simply pointed out that you have admitted that you sin on occasion, and therefore your pipe-dream of sinless perfection is only that, a pipe-dream.


ALL Christians are in the Sanctification process. Some are farther along than others. But you make no allowance for that.

No believer is exempt from Sanctification. Not a single one! So you're nothing special for being in that process.


Irrelevant. The Ark was seaworthy whether you believe it or not. I personally have seen someone raised from the dead. I know it's true, from experience, as well as Scripture.


There is far more to it than that. Do you even understand how, by being in Christ, we are moved BEYOND the penalty of the Law? Obviously, you don't, or you wouldn't be posting all the false doctrine and drivel you've been posting. You have need of some serious in-depth study of the basics of salvation. that alone would correct much of your errors.

Please do not take offense. I honestly cannot read your post. For I find it to be very hostile. But what can convince me is if you are able to provide for me a real world example to illustrate how your belief is true and good. Then make another real world example showing how my belief is false.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I have already given the real world example. Repeatedly. From Paul's own testimony in Romans 7.

No. You cannot use the Bible to illustrate your real world example in how your belief is moral and good. You are just reading the Bible and interpreting it. I want you to point out something in the real world that is not connected to the Bible and just illustrate to me how your belief is moral and good all on it's own. Why do I say this? Because Jesus did this. They are called parables.


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[nobdysfool]

Okay, there friend. Calm down. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please feel free to show me and I would be happy to apologize if you think I have said something wrong to someone personally.

In any event, may God bless you and please be well.....

I'm not agitated at all. I am simply telling the truth, in a very direct manner. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You made the claim that you have addressed no one personally, and yet I've seen 3 or 4 posts just today where you took FG2, and Gill, to name a few, directly to task for what they said to you. Don't tell us you're not speaking of anyone in particular, we're not buying it, because it is NOT TRUE. Repent of your lies, and your slander against us. You have accused each and every one of us of falsehoods.

 

[GillDouglas]

The good news does not include to cover a person's sin (even if it is done occasionally with them confessing of it). If one has the mind set that they will always be in sin, then that means God must also agree with that type of thinking and that is not possible. God cannot condone sin.

This is why we say believe you preach a different gospel.

I am not in disagreement about this verse. I believe we can only go thru Jesus Christ. But the Jesus Christ described in the Scriptures works in the believer's life, though (And does not make an alllowance for them to continue in their sin - whether it is a little bit of sin over their life or a lot of sin).

You're adding to the Scripture.

So God just picks people randomly that are sinful? Or is there something honorable or holy about such a person?

All are sinners, none have any special prerequisites met. God shows no partiality, yet some are elected and others are passed by.

No, I teach that man must submit to God and that they will allow Christ to do the good work in them whereby they would then become sinless. However, most believers usually have to go thru the Sanctification process, though. This is not in conflict with Sinless Perfectionism.

A man DOES NOT become sinless or holy in this life. The sanctification process is a must for ALL believers. Sinless Perfectionism is made up.

No, you have things backwards. One is Holy BECAUSE Christ lives in them. For Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:5 that they are to prove Christ is in them unless they are reprobrates. How would one prove that Christ is in them? Would it not be by their good deeds?

May I suggest you pick up a Bible and actually read it? Preferable a KJV, ESV, or NASB. Once you do that, check out the many versus that talk about how the ONLY good in them is Christ, that the ONLY good they do comes from the work of the Holy Spirit. Also a few questions if I may, who do we have to prove it to that Christ is in us, if Christ IS in us? What benefit do we get towards our salvation by proving to others that we are His?

 

[nobdysfool]

Please do not take offense. I honestly cannot read your post. For I find it to be very hostile. But what can convince me is if you are able to provide for me a real world example to illustrate how your belief is true and good. Then make another real world example showing how my belief is false.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.....

I am not being hostile, I am being truthful. There is a difference.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not agitated at all. I am simply telling the truth, in a very direct manner. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You made the claim that you have addressed no one personally, and yet I've seen 3 or 4 posts just today where you took FG2, and Gill, to name a few, directly to task for what they said to you. Don't tell us you're not speaking of anyone in particular, we're not buying it, because it is NOT TRUE. Repent of your lies, and your slander against us. You have accused each and every one of us of falsehoods.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I believe you are seeing something that is not there.


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[FreeGrace2]

As for your second question: Because we are to walk as Christ walked. We are to walk in his footsteps and conform to his image. Christ is our example in how to live holy. Jesus was obedient to the Father until death. For it is glorious to God if we are persecuted and killed for our faith. For it shows that we are faithful even in the face of death whereby we would give glory to Jesus Christ and the life that He lived.

You have yet to conform to Christ's image, from your own post # 2344, where you admitted that you still sin.

Now, that I have answered your questions, it is time for you to provide a real world example out of what you believe in regards to OSAS.....

Since you've rejected Paul's own testimony about the struggle between the old and new natures from Romans 7, here is a real world example of a believer who was physically killed by God for going to a medium (1 Chron 10:13,14), going against a direct command.

Saul was going to join Samuel after death per 1 Sam 28:19.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why we say believe you preach a different gospel.
You're adding to the Scripture.
All are sinners, none have any special prerequisites met. God shows no partiality, yet some are elected and others are passed by.
A man DOES NOT become sinless or holy in this life. The sanctification process is a must for ALL believers. Sinless Perfectionism is made up.
May I suggest you pick up a Bible and actually read it? Preferable a KJV, ESV, or NASB. Once you do that, check out the many versus that talk about how the ONLY good in them is Christ, that the ONLY good they do comes from the work of the Holy Spirit. Also a few questions if I may, who do we have to prove it to that Christ is in us, if Christ IS in us? What benefit do we get towards our salvation by proving to others that we are His?

And now you are insulting me as a reply? Again, please provide for me a real world example to illustrate how your belief is moral and good. Then make another real world example to show how my belief is the immoral one.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You have yet to conform to Christ's image, from your own post # 2344, where you admitted that you still sin.

All sin that is confessed is in the past. I also said that I do not sin day in and day out, either. I also have the hope that I will overcome my sin at any moment by the power of God because I believe that it is possible to do so (As the Scriptures plainly teach).

Since you've rejected Paul's own testimony about the struggle between the old and new natures from Romans 7,

I have not rejected Romans 7. I have told you that Paul was talking from the perspective of when he was a Jew before he became a Christian.

here is a real world example of a believer who was physically killed by God for going to a medium (1 Chron 10:13,14), going against a direct command.

Saul was going to join Samuel after death per 1 Sam 28:19.

Again, this is you reading the Bible and placing your personal interpretation upon it. That is NOT a real world example (i.e. a parable). Please use a parable like Jesus had used in the Scriptures to illustrate how your belief is good and moral. Then make another real world example showing how my belief is immoral. Thank you. And may God bless you.


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[GillDouglas]

The passage in Isaiah here is talking about initial acceptance of Christ and it is not talking about a continued walk with Him. There is a difference.
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Says you, but you are wrong. Christ's death covers ALL sins.

 

[nobdysfool]

What's this incessant demanding for a "real world example"? Just another tactic to deflect and obfuscate, because he knows he's losing the argument. You can't get much more "real world" than Scripture! Scripture is the be-all and end-all of this argument.

Also, he thinks I'm 'seeing something that isn't there". I'll ask you who are participating here. Am I?

 

[GillDouglas]

And now you are insulting me as a reply? Again, please provide for me a real world example to illustrate how your belief is moral and good. Then make another real world example to show how my belief is the immoral one.
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Why do you insist on real world examples when you disregard what's already been provided (Scripture more specifically)?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I have already given the real world example. Repeatedly. From Paul's own testimony in Romans 7."

No. You cannot use the Bible to illustrate your real world example in how your belief is moral and good.

Since the Bible is our ONLY SOURCE for what is moral and good, that's your problem since you think the Bible isn't moral or good.

I've given plenty of real world evidence that backs up the view that all believers will sin until death. Including you. From your own admission from post #2344.

You are just reading the Bible and interpreting it.

What a cop out. Anyone can say that about anything that they don't agree with. But the verses I have given are so clear that one simply has to REJECT them. And you have failed epically to show that they don't support my view.

I want you to point out something in the real world that is not connected to the Bible and just illustrate to me how your belief is moral and good all on it's own. Why do I say this? Because Jesus did this. They are called parables.

Where does the Bible tell us to create parables for those who have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

It is obvious that you don't even understand the point of Jesus' parables. It was for those who had already rejected Him and truth.

They were for those who:
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matt 13:13

So you can stop asking for parables. They won't help those who do not understand. Esp not for those who have deceived themselves.

The Bible is our ONLY GUIDE for morality and truth. And yet you reject the real world examples from the Bible.

But that figures, given everything you've posted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What's this incessant demanding for a "real world example"? Just another tactic to deflect and obfuscate, because he knows he's losing the argument. You can't get much more "real world" than Scripture! Scripture is the be-all and end-all of this argument.

Also, he thinks I'm 'seeing something that isn't there". I'll ask you who are participating here. Am I?

Of course not. It's he who has deceived himself and the truth is not in him, just as John wrote in 1 Jn 1:8 regarding those who say they have no sin. Like Jason claims.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What's this incessant demanding for a "real world example"? Just another tactic to deflect and obfuscate, because he knows he's losing the argument. You can't get much more "real world" than Scripture! Scripture is the be-all and end-all of this argument.

Also, he thinks I'm 'seeing something that isn't there". I'll ask you who are participating here. Am I?

A real world example is what Jesus made many times thru out the Scriptures to illustrate spiritual truth to people. For what was true in the real world also held true for the spiritual world. For even the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon what Jesus said involving a real world example; And Jesus accepted her example back because it was an example based on a truth in the real world.

As for my pushing for folks to make a real world example being a weakness in the defense of my position: On the contrary, folks failure to provide such a simple example only proves that their belief is not what it really claims to be.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
"I have already given the real world example. Repeatedly. From Paul's own testimony in Romans 7."

Since the Bible is our ONLY SOURCE for what is moral and good, that's your problem since you think the Bible isn't moral or good.

I've given plenty of real world evidence that backs up the view that all believers will sin until death. Including you. From your own admission from post #2344.


What a cop out. Anyone can say that about anything that they don't agree with. But the verses I have given are so clear that one simply has to REJECT them. And you have failed epically to show that they don't support my view.


Where does the Bible tell us to create parables for those who have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

It is obvious that you don't even understand the point of Jesus' parables. It was for those who had already rejected Him and truth.

They were for those who:
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matt 13:13

So you can stop asking for parables. They won't help those who do not understand. Esp not for those who have deceived themselves.

The Bible is our ONLY GUIDE for morality and truth. And yet you reject the real world examples from the Bible.

But that figures, given everything you've posted.

Where does the Bible tell us to make parables to determine the truth? Well, the Canaanite woman expounded upon what Jesus said with an example of her own and Jesus accepted it. For the truth she illustrated was in line with the real world. Also, we are to be Christ's example, too. We are to walk as he had walked. So if Jesus told parables, it is only logical that we can do the same thing.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Of course not. It's he who has deceived himself and the truth is not in him, just as John wrote in 1 Jn 1:8 regarding those who say they have no sin. Like Jason claims.

And this would be a false claim because I believe a saint can still be saved despite them having sins in their life that do not lead unto spiritual death. A Biblical example of a sin that does not lead unto spiritual death would be a believer who died who chose not to be baptized. The context of 1 John 1:8 is in view of sins that lead unto spiritual death (like murder, hate, theft, etc.) whereby they would need to be confessed so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). 1 John 1:8 is talking about those who deny the very existence of sin itself on some level. Christian Scientists do not believe in sin, evil, or the devil. Antinomians believe that they sin physically, but they do not have any sin on a spiritual level because Jesus paid the price for their present and future sin. That is what 1 John 1:8 is actually talking about. For there is no verse (besides a wrong interpreation of 1 John 1:10) that supports the view that John was teaching against Sinless Perfectionism in his epistle.


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[sdowney717]

Justification is by faith and justification is by Christ's blood, not by our works.
When you add in works to be justified, you are preaching a false gospel.
Anyone who preaches a false gospel is doubly cursed, so most emphatically they are cursed.
And they certainly are not trusting in Christ for righteousness but seek to establish their own right standing with God by their works,
so most assuredly they are not even saved.

I also expect anyone so cursed, they have been given over to that, so repentance for them is not very likely.
And most certainly they will not repent unless God grants that they do.

Romans 4:1
[ Abraham Justified by Faith ] What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
I
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 4:9
[ Abraham Justified Before Circumcision ] Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 5:1
[ Faith Triumphs in Trouble ] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jesus tells us this to be our attitude
Luke 17:10
So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

 

[nobdysfool]

A real world example is what Jesus made many times thru out the Scriptures to illustrate spiritual truth to people. For what was true in the real world also held true for the spiritual world. For even the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon what Jesus said involving a real world example; And Jesus accepted her example back because it was an example based on a truth in the real world.

As for my pushing for folks to make a real world example being a weakness in the defense of my position: On the contrary, folks failure to provide such a simple example only proves that their belief is not what it really claims to be.....

That just about a half step from indicting us for "not being more like Jesus". As I said, there is NOTHING more "real world" that Scripture. Your claim that it's only our interpretation cuts both ways, your view is only your interpretation. So knock it off with the obfuscation and deflection. Yours is the weaker position, and it has been amply proven. Your disdain the real world examples from Scripture. You don't want to hear them, or have them posted, because you cannot credibly say anything against them. You want to continue in your deception because it's comfortable, and doesn't require you to think. You have been caught telling falsehoods, accusing people falsely, and telling outright lies. Yet you don't even follow your own deception, to repent of your actions, and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.