Logical Problems with Calvinism

[tulipbee]

I never said there was a problem with Eph 1:4. The problem begins with what Calvinists think that means.

As I have aleady shown, the verse actually says that God has chosen believers. Because the "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19 as believers:
"and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."
That's who the "us" are in 1:4. Believers. God chose believers.

Notice that the verse sure doesn't say that God chose who would be believers.

So now, what's the problem?

God dont choose unbelivers cause he didn't connect them to be his children before creation

 

[nobdysfool]

My life is not characterized by a life of living in sin day in and day out. There are days I do not sin. For there is a difference in a believer abiding in sin all the time and a believer in stumbling on their road to recovery (Where they will put away sin in their life for good).

It is very clear that you assume that all who take issue with your interpretation are living in a constant state of sin. It drips from your posts. You couldn't be more wrong. Those who participate here are not living like that. They wouldn't be here trying to correct your faulty understanding if they were. So, the truth is, in misrepresenting us, you are bearing false witness against us, a sin, which you apparently have not yet repented of, because you keep doing it.

God's people are supposed to be holy and not sinful. It is madness to suggest otherwise.

No one here would argue with that statement. But you continue to lecture us as though we took issue with that statement.
Why do you bear false witness against your brethren? Why?

[quote} The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). The BIble says everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).[/quote]

Two strikes against you right there, because you bear false witness against us. By your own reasoning, you are of the devil, and hate the light.
Why? Because you have sinned against us, and against God, and apparently are unrepentant about it..

Also, if a believer sins, he confesses that sin and is forgiven of it and cleansed of all unrighteousness. So past sins that are confessed are erased.

Again, no one would argue with that statement, but you act as though we do. You're not listening, and not telling the truth about us. Why?

This does not mean we have a license to sin as much as we want, though.

No one here is saying that we do. Why aren't you listening? Why do you continue to bear false witness against us, and treat us as though we the spawn of satan himself?

Confession is supposed to lead us into holiness and God's goodness. Confession is not mindless lip service. For not everyone that says Lord, Lord unto Him will enter the Kingdom of God. Only those who do His will will enter in (See Matthew 7).

Again, no one here is suggesting otherwise. We would all agree with that statement. So why do you treat us as though we take issue with that statement?

Bottom line here, is that you, Jason, are bearing false witness against those of us who find your emphasis and interpretation of the scriptures on this subject to be faulty. You can't actually answer the questions we've raised, and what we have shown to be unbalanced and outright false in your pontifications, so you attempt to besmirch our characters, and accuse us falsely of things we neither say or do. You attempt to paint us as continually sinning because we disagree with you, you attempt to make it looks as though we encourage people to sin, which is an outright lie, and you attempt to set yourself apart from us as being oh-so-holy-and-pure, possessing sinless perfection, not realizing that you negate that claim with the very things you say and attempt to claim as the way we live our lives.

You're a fraud, through and through.

 

[GillDouglas]

My life is not characterized by a life of living in sin day in and day out. There are days I do not sin. For there is a difference in a believer abiding in sin all the time and a believer in stumbling on their road to recovery (Where they will put away sin in their life for good). God's people are supposed to be holy and not sinful. It is madness to suggest otherwise.

It is madness to suggest that believers abide in sin like their old self. If you come across someone claiming to be Christian, who has not just temporarily stumbled/fallen, but living in constant unrepentant sin they are most likely NOT a believer. Instead of judging them as such and damning them however, you would show them the need for Christ truly, not that they need to obtain some kind of perfection to be free from sin but that He already did for us so that what was once unobtainable through the law is offered freely through grace.

A permanent perfect sinless self is impossible in this lifetime, but it is something we would still hope to achieve as closely as possible in our journey. There is good purpose to not have us obtain this state of perfection immediately and before physical death, which I have explained to you a dozen times. Sanctification is a life long and daily process in which we are continually growing to be more like Christ.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's actually no more need to post anything, now that you've admitted that you're only hoping to be sinless one day.

Do I need to raise the dead to believe that other believers have done so? No.
Do I need to built an Ark to know that such a boat would be sea worthy? No.
It's called faith. I believe what God's Word says.

Again, 1 Peter 4:1 says, they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. There is no mention that this is talking about habitual sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Now, logic dictates that if one has crucified the affections and lusts this would mean that they would not be tempted to sin at all. For how can you sin if you crucified the affections and lusts?

But you don't have to hope for it. When we lose our physical bodies, and transfer to eternity, we'll all be sinless. Forever.

Somebody just made this up and you are believing it. Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven. This is just an excuse for a believer to hold on to their sin for the rest of their lives because they desire to want to have it in their life (deep down). I mean, humor me for a moment. From your world view or persepctive: If there was the slightest chance that Sinless Perfectionism was taught in the Bibe, wouldn't you want to stop sinning so as to please your Lord? For you are out to please God, right? You are out to be His faithful servant, right? How can a faithful servant of their Master also do evil against their Lord? For me, that just doesn't add up. In fact, if what you say is actually true, then you will have no problem in making a real world example out of what you believe.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul lays it out for us in the timeline as God choosing us first, not the other way round.

Who are the "us" in Eph 1:4? Paul makes that clear in 1:19. Believers. That's WHO God chose in 1:4.

2 Timothy 1
Here we also read of this in v9
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Can not get more individual and purposeful than that, WE WERE CHOSEN IN HIM before the foundation of the world in love to be His own special people.

I see nothing in 2 Tim 1:9 that speaks of God choosing anyone to believe in Him. I do see the order of FIRST being saved (which is through faith per Eph 2:8) and THEN being called. And that calling is a "holy calling", which is EXACTLY what Paul said God chose us (believers) FOR; that we should be holy and blameless.

And everyone said Amen! Thanks be to the Lord.

Esp when His Word is correctly understood.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This silly angle that is being played by FreeGrace2 is ridiculous and has been seen as such by anyone paying attention to his methods for a couple of years now.

Truth is never silly.

It is a circular argument which no one can refute. That's why he uses it again and again.

Unless someone can prove that my argument is circular, your statement is irrelevant and just your opinion.

The reason my argument cannot be refuted is because it is the truth. The "us" in Eph 1:4 means "believers" as Paul clearly noted in 1:19.

So, it's believers WHO God chose to be holy and blameless (1:4). That isn't circular.

The statement in the scripture is being addressed to believers. Therefore, so the argument goes, those elected are believers. (Duhh!)

Of course. It is believers who are elected. Not how Calvinists think of it: God chooses who will believe. He chose those who have already believed.

Never mind that the entire point of the scripture is to show that these believers were chosen long before they believed.

Of course. The timing of all of His choices were in eternity past. That's not the debate. Let's stay focused.

The entire truth that the Lord is giving to us in the scriptures is deflected, supposedly, by this absolutely ridiculous twist of words.

What have I twisted? Nothing. I have only pointed out what the verse SAYS.

 

[sdowney717]

It is madness to suggest that believers abide in sin like their old self. If you come across someone claiming to be Christian, who has not just temporarily stumbled/fallen, but living in constant unrepentant sin they are most likely NOT a believer. Instead of judging them as such and damning them however, you would show them the need for Christ truly, not that they need to obtain some kind of perfection to be free from sin but that He already did for us so that what was once unobtainable through the law is offered freely through grace.

A permanent perfect sinless self is impossible in this lifetime, but it is something we would still hope to achieve as closely as possible in our journey. There is good purpose to not have us obtain this state of perfection immediately and before physical death, which I have explained to you a dozen times. Sanctification is a life long and daily process in which we are continually growing to be more like Christ.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Yes, after justification comes glorification.

We are this right now, redeemed by His blood, not future time something those who claim we lose our redemption in Christ never can understand.. In that God has blessed us, that is written past tense, signifies to us God will not change His mind about our salvation. And we are accepted in the beloved right now, not just in the future.
Those redeemed by the blood of Christ have the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace towards us who believe.
In the New Covenant, God says He will remember their sins no more. The idea being the wages of sin is death, so those who are forgiven their sin have no spiritual death, they have eternal life right now.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

So for believers God does v12 for them. The entire sin leading to death equation has been undone and no longer applies as believers in Christ have eternal life and will never perish. He has put away our sins permanently by His blood sacrifice, there is no longer any spiritual death penalty for sin, It is the mercy of God that leads us to repentance and God has permanently granted to believers repentance unto life. Their sins are no longer imputed to them but are forgotten by God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

All our sins are purged, forever expunged.

Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power,
when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Of course the devil hates our great unmerited salvation and seeks every opportunity to corrupt our understanding.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is madness to suggest that believers abide in sin like their old self. If you come across someone claiming to be Christian, who has not just temporarily stumbled/fallen, but living in constant unrepentant sin they are most likely NOT a believer. Instead of judging them as such and damning them however, you would show them the need for Christ truly, not that they need to obtain some kind of perfection to be free from sin but that He already did for us so that what was once unobtainable through the law is offered freely through grace.

First, do you believe the Scriptures where Jesus made real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth (i.e. parables)? Do you believe the Scriptures where the Canaanite woman had expounded upon what Jesus said by using a real world example? I say this because Jesus and others have used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. So if what you believe is true, then you should have no problem in doing what the Canaanite woman had done. In other words, please make a real world example out of what you believe if what you say is true.

Second, I am glad you at least recognize that people who claim to be Christian and yet live in their sin as a way of life will not gain entrance into God's Kingdom. There are many who claim to be Christian who are living in a life of sin who believe they are saved. But the problem I see is that they say the very words you are saying, though. They also say that they are justified by Christ and His righteousness and it is not in anything that they do (but they continue to live in sin without impunity). Their message sounds exactly like your message (if not explained in detail). For the listener can easily get the wrong impression when they hear the message that it is not in anything they do but it is what Christ has done by simply believing. Saying this can easily lead people to think they can sin without impunity if not properly explained. This is why I do not see anything different in what you believe versus the person who holds to the view that they can sin without impunity and still be saved.

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but from my understanding in what you believe, you hold to the idea that a Christian will always have sin in their life but they will not sin habitually. You believe that if a believer sins, they will confess and forsake their sin BUT they will never be able to stop sinning in this life, though. Is that correct? Well, if it is, then your view is really no different than a person who lives in habitual sin and thinks they are saved. How so? Let me use a real world example to help illustrate to you on where I am coming from.

For example: An alcoholic makes a promise to his family that he is going to be sober. But this alcoholic really loves his drink, too. Now, if this alcoholic goes from moments of sobreity to drunkeness back and forth for the rest of his life repeatedly over the course of 25 years until he dies, could you ever classify this person as someone as being a non-alcoholic or someone who was sober and alcohol free? No, of course not. This man was a slave to his sin still. In fact, Jesus says, "he that sins is a slave to sin." In other words, substitute the words "sober" or "alcohol free" with the words "holiness" or "living holy." In other words, is a person really living holy if they are still enslaved to their sin? I do not think so. A believer has to in time overcome their sin (As the Scriptures clearly teach).

A permanent perfect sinless self is impossible in this lifetime, but it is something we would still hope to achieve as closely as possible in our journey. There is good purpose to not have us obtain this state of perfection immediately and before physical death, which I have explained to you a dozen times. Sanctification is a life long and daily process in which we are continually growing to be more like Christ.

You may think that ceasing from sin is impossible (As the Scriptures say), but it is written, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

#1. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. How can one continue to sin and also cease from sin?

#2. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? How can one still sin if they have crucified the affections and lusts?

#3. Psalm 119:11, David says, "Your word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." Why would David be concerned with this if he was always just going to sin anyways no matter what?

#4. Paul says in Romans 6:14 that sin shall not have dominion over you. How does sin not have dominion over a believer if it has dominion over them in the fact that they keep sinning? Is not one of the points of Romans 6 telling us that we cannot continue in sin while under grace?

#5. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery and to a man he healed to: "sin no more." In fact, to the man he healed, he said that if he did not stop sinning, a worse thing would come upon him. Now, what do you think would happen if this man continued to sin? Does it sound like Jesus is teaching that a man will forever remain in his sins here?​

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18)

There are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto "spiritual death" are those sins that John list that will cause one to face the "second death" or the Lake of Fire. John lists such sins as murder, idolatry, witchcraft, and lying, etc. Paul also mentions these sins several times, too. He said, "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:21).

In 2 Corinthians 3:18, Paul is not talking specifically about living in sins that lead unto spiritual death here. He does not say that we need to stop murdering, fornicating, lying, and getting drunk etc. so as to conform to the image of Christ. Paul is talking to those saints who have repented of their sins with a Godly sorrow (See 2 Corinthians 7).



....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Somebody just made this up and you are believing it. Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven.

I guess the madness just will not stop. Why would anyone think that in our resurrection bodies, which are just like Christ's, that we will continue to sin, or even have the ability to sin? Your views are getting farther and farther out.

This is just an excuse for a believer to hold on to their sin for the rest of their lives because they desire to want to have it in their life (deep down).

This is just an ad hominem attack.No one "wants to hold on to their sin" because of some desire. That is pure garbage. The FACT is that we will have our sin nature until we separate from our bodies. You've not proven otherwise.

I've given you clear teaching from Paul about his own struggle against his own sin nature in Romans 7 and Eph 5. But you continue to kick against the goads.

I mean, humor me for a moment. From your world view or persepctive: If there was the slightest chance that Sinless Perfectionism was taught in the Bibe, wouldn't you want to stop sinning so as to please your Lord?

I don't intend to humor anyone, but to defend truth. So please take note about what I say. The Bible teaches that we are to avoid sin, and gives us the solution to the FACT that we will continue to sin; confession per 1 Jn 1:9.

The command to avoid sin doesn't mean nor prove that we can attain sinless in this life. That is a satanic delusion.

And your frequent comment about a "sin and stay saved" doctrine reveals your total failure to understand WHY Christ died on the cross. How sad.

Your opinion reveals your view that one must cease from sin in order to get saved. Straight from the devil. That is works salvation, trying to earn or deserve it. But it cannot be earned nor is it deserved. That's WHY God gives grace.

For you are out to please God, right? You are out to be His faithful servant, right?

Which is why I sin less and less.

How can a faithful servant of their Master also do evil against their Lord?

What kind of weird question is that? When servants aren't faithful and do evil, they are disciplined. Which does NOT include loss of salvation.

For me, that just doesn't add up.

According to 1 Jn 1:8, you have been self deceived and the truth is not in you. Which is why truth "just doesn't add up".

In fact, if what you say is actually true, then you will have no problem in making a real world example out of what you believe.
...

I already have, which you already rejected. Paul's own testimony in Romans 7 and 1 Tim 1:15.

What you've epically failed to do is prove your views about achieving sinless perfection in your present body of corruption.

 

[GillDouglas]

Somebody just made this up and you are believing it. Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven.

Someone didn't just make this up, it's obvious to any true believer that once we shed this mortal shell, all that is left is our spiritual self which is completely unshackled from our old sinful nature. Unless you're saying that we'll still be tempted to sin even in Heaven, which I find to be an insane notion.

This is just an excuse for a believer to hold on to their sin for the rest of their lives because they desire to want to have it in their life (deep down).

Why do you insist that true believers want to sin and desire to keep sinning? I cannot speak for all but for me personally, this couldn't be further from the truth. I find it truly offensive that you assume that all believers, except for you, desire to live in sin.

I mean, humor me for a moment. From your world view or persepctive: If there was the slightest chance that Sinless Perfectionism was taught in the Bibe, wouldn't you want to stop sinning so as to please your Lord? For you are out to please God, right? You are out to be His faithful servant, right? How can a faithful servant of their Master also do evil against their Lord? For me, that just doesn't add up. In fact, if what you say is actually true, then you will have no problem in making a real world example out of what you believe.

Of course we want to do well or what's right in His eyes but we fail to do so consistently, that's why believers go through cycles of doubt and despair. Truly think about this for a moment. A believer who has a misplaced trust in their own ability to achieve daily perfection will fail again and again. Additionally, a man who preaches others to do so is not working in His interest, but their own. So please, get off your horse and join us in the real world.

 

[sdowney717]

Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven. This is just an excuse for a believer to hold on to their sin for the rest of their lives because they desire to want to have it in their life (deep down).
...

Jason you're crazy weird here, in Hebrews 12 it says of our heavenly home this about people, they are made perfect in spirit.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

No sin, if scripture says we are made perfect, their is no sin in heaven.
Jason you need to repent, your misrepresenting God and sinning against Him in your false teaching, you're lying about Christ and God.

Christ has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

THERE IS NO SIN IN HEAVEN.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these

 

[GillDouglas]

First, do you believe the Scriptures where Jesus made real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth (i.e. parables)? Do you believe the Scriptures where the Canaanite woman had expounded upon what Jesus said by using a real world example? I say this because Jesus and others have used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. So if what you believe is true, then you should have no problem in doing what the Canaanite woman had done. In other words, please make a real world example out of what you believe if what you say is true.

I have given you examples as well as my own testimony, yet you ignore everything I say.

Second, I am glad you at least recognize that people who claim to be Christian and yet live in their sin as a way of life will not gain entrance into God's Kingdom. There are many who claim to be Christian who are living in a life of sin who believe they are saved. But the problem I see is that they say the very words you are saying, though. They also say that they are justified by Christ and His righteousness and it is not in anything that they do (but they continue to live in sin without impunity). Their message sounds exactly like your message (if not explained in detail). For the listener can easily get the wrong impression when they hear the message that it is not in anything they do but it is what Christ has done by simply believing. Saying this can easily lead people to think they can sin without impunity if not properly explained. This is why I do not see anything different in what you believe versus the person who holds to the view that they can sin without impunity and still be saved.

Your words are most unkind, even if subtle, the way you speak to everyone on these forums. It is not for us to say who is or who should be saved for that authority has been given to Christ. Though we should see the fruit of the Spirit as a result of His work in them, it may not always be evident all the time. If we come across a brother at a moment in his life where he is struggling with a particular sin, should we judge him or lead him back to Christ? For me it seems that you would rather judge them and call them out as someone living in sin or a follower of Satan rather than showing them love and compassion. Do you not see the error in this? May I suggest that you pray for a less arrogant/superior self image and a more compassionate/understanding heart?

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but from my understanding in what you believe, you hold to the idea that a Christian will always have sin in their life but they will not sin habitually. You believe that if a believer sins, they will confess and forsake their sin BUT they will never be able to stop sinning in this life, though. Is that correct?

Correct.

For example: An alcoholic makes a promise to his family that he is going to be sober. But this alcoholic really loves his drink, too. Now, if this alcoholic goes from moments of sobreity to drunkeness back and forth for the rest of his life repeatedly over the course of 25 years until he dies, could you ever classify this person as someone as being a non-alcoholic or someone who was sober and alcohol free? No, of course not. This man was a slave to his sin still. In fact, Jesus says, "he that sins is a slave to sin." In other words, substitute the words "sober" or "alcohol free" with the words "holiness" or "living holy." In other words, is a person really living holy if they are still enslaved to their sin? I do not think so. A believer has to in time overcome their sin (As the Scriptures clearly teach).

Your example fails to illustrate how a believer struggles with sin, and Who they should turn to in order to overcome it.

You may think that ceasing from sin is impossible (As the Scriptures say), but it is written, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

#1. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. How can one continue to sin and also cease from sin?

#2. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? How can one still sin if they have crucified the affections and lusts?

#3. Psalm 119:11, David says, "Your word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." Why would David be concerned with this if he was always just going to sin anyways no matter what?

#4. Paul says in Romans 6:14 that sin shall not have dominion over you. How does sin not have dominion over a believer if it has dominion over them in the fact that they keep sinning? Is not one of the points of Romans 6 telling us that we cannot continue in sin while under grace?

#5. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery and to a man he healed to: "sin no more." In fact, to the man he healed, he said that if he did not stop sinning, a worse thing would come upon him. Now, what do you think would happen if this man continued to sin? Does it sound like Jesus is teaching that a man will forever remain in his sins here?​

There are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto "spiritual death" are those sins that John list that will cause one to face the "second death" or the Lake of Fire. John lists such sins as murder, idolatry, witchcraft, and lying, etc. Paul also mentions these sins several times, too. He said, "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:21).

In 2 Corinthians 3:18, Paul is not talking specifically about living in sins that lead unto spiritual death here. He does not say that we need to stop murdering, fornicating, lying, and getting drunk etc. so as to conform to the image of Christ. Paul is talking to those saints who have repented of their sins with a Godly sorrow (See 2 Corinthians 7).

"But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:9-10)

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." (Romans 5:3-5)

"And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." (1 Peter 5:10)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess the madness just will not stop. Why would anyone think that in our resurrection bodies, which are just like Christ's, that we will continue to sin, or even have the ability to sin? Your views are getting farther and farther out.

Where did I ever say that we would sin in heaven or deny that our body of sin will be removed? The point I was making is that you are believing that a believer will not stop sinning until they die and go to Heaven. But the Scriptures teach that we can stop sinning now in this life (1 Peter 4:1) (Galatians 5:24) (Romans 6:14) (Psalm 119:11) (Matthew 5:48) (John 5:14) (John 8:11) (Hebrews 12:14).

This is just an ad hominem attack.No one "wants to hold on to their sin" because of some desire. That is pure garbage. The FACT is that we will have our sin nature until we separate from our bodies. You've not proven otherwise.

Nowhere did I specifically mention you. I am merely attacking the belief and speaking generally of those who hold to this view. Granted, I realize that you do hold to this belief, but I am striving to not drag you or your personal life into it. This forum is not a facebook discussion; We are here to discuss God's Word. Anyways, I believe I have presented Scriptures that makes it all too clear that we can stop sinning in this life. Your not wanting to acknowledge such a truth does not change it in God's Word, my friend. But I do believe that people do not believe or do things without a reason or motivation behind it. I believe that if a person does sin or some kind of evil (Whether it be a lot of sin or a little bit of sin), they are doing so for a reason. This is why I believe many in the OSAS camp have gotten upset with me and have called me some pretty bad stuff over the years.

I've given you clear teaching from Paul about his own struggle against his own sin nature in Romans 7 and Eph 5. But you continue to kick against the goads.

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is talking from his perspective as a Jew before he became a Christian. In Romans 7:1, Paul says he speaks to those who know the Law. Meaning, he is speaking from a perspective of being under the Law from his old life. How so? Well, in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin. So unless Paul has a split personality, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here. For Paul speaks in at least one other place in Scripture from another perspective (See Galatians 2:18).

I don't intend to humor anyone, but to defend truth. So please take note about what I say. The Bible teaches that we are to avoid sin, and gives us the solution to the FACT that we will continue to sin; confession per 1 Jn 1:9.

The idiom to "humor me" is to entertain the possibility and it is not in trying to be funny (if that is what you were suggesting). Your avoidance of my questions so as to "humor me" does not help your case here to defend your position but it only hinders it, my friend.

Also, I believe I am defending the truth of the Scriptures, too; However, we both cannot be right, though.

Now, you are saying that you are to avoid sin and to confess sin when it happens. But one cannot really avoid sin because in your belief they will always be dragged back into sin like a magnet sticking to a piece of metal. There is no real avoidance of sin in your view. In your belief, sin has dominion over you. But Paul says, in Romans 6:14, that sin shall not have dominion over you. Please take note that in Romans 6, one of the points Paul is making is for us not to continue in sin while under grace.

The command to avoid sin doesn't mean nor prove that we can attain sinless in this life. That is a satanic delusion.

What advantage does the devil have if a believer actually attains in living a holy life? I do not see how that helps him. On the contrary, the Scriptures say, "be ye angry and sin not..." (Ephesians 4:26), "Neither give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27).

How does one give place to the devil? By sinning, of course.
It does no good for the devil if a believer stops sinning.

And your frequent comment about a "sin and stay saved" doctrine reveals your total failure to understand WHY Christ died on the cross. How sad.

So you admit that you believe in a "sin and still be saved" doctrine on some level? Do you believe that you can die in urepentant sin and still be saved? Do you believe all future sin is paid for? How does that not lead one to think the wrong thing about salvation whereby they will live a life of sin without impunity?

Your opinion reveals your view that one must cease from sin in order to get saved. Straight from the devil. That is works salvation, trying to earn or deserve it. But it cannot be earned nor is it deserved. That's WHY God gives grace.

I believe I have an assurance of my salvation now (Which is based upon various verses in Scripture). But I also realize that I must continue in the faith, though. For it is THRU faith whereby we gain access to God's grace (Which is a free gift). Also, I do not believe it is in anything "I do" that ultimately saves me, either. I believe it is the work Christ does in me. For it is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. So no. I am not out to look at getting any kind of credit or anything. I am here to let the light of Christ shine thru my life.

Which is why I sin less and less.

Again, even one sin is enough to cause tremendous problems even spiritually. For it only took one sin to separate God from man in the Garden.

What kind of weird question is that? When servants aren't faithful and do evil, they are disciplined. Which does NOT include loss of salvation.

No. See, you think it is okay in God's eyes to let a believer get away with a little bit of evil as long as they confess it. That would be like a wife who allows her husband to cheat on her as long as he keeps saying he is sorry to her. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

According to 1 Jn 1:8, you have been self deceived and the truth is not in you. Which is why truth "just doesn't add up".

I have already explained to you what 1 John 1:8 is actually saying. For are you sinning every 5 minutes? Is not 1 John 1:8 talking in the present tense? Is it not a declaration in that very moment in time? In other words, 1 John 1:8 is a warning to those who ignore sin's penalty on some level. For Christian Scientists believe there is no such thing as sin or evil or a devil. They are essentially fulfilling 1 John 1:8. This is the same for the OSAS proponent who ignores that they sin spiritually because they believe their present and future sins are paid for (Even though they believe that they sin physically). This truth is confirmed by reading 1 John 1:6, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 4:20, Titus 1:16.

I already have, which you already rejected. Paul's own testimony in....1 Tim 1:15.

Paul is not declaring he is a sinner in the present tense. Again, as I said before, see verse 13 (1 Timothy 1:13). Paul says BEFORE he was a blasphemer, etc. (As a part of his old life).

What you've epically failed to do is prove your views about achieving sinless perfection in your present body of corruption.

I do not need to prove that the Ark is sea worthy in order to believe it.
I do not need to prove that God raised people to dead personally myself in order to believe it.
I have faith.
And I believe with God all things are possible.


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[GillDouglas]

No. See, you think it is okay in God's eyes to let a believer get away with a little bit of evil as long as they confess it. That would be like a wife who allows her husband to cheat on her as long as he keeps saying he is sorry to her. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

And this is where we see just how WRONG you are. Christ's death has no meaning to you. Forgiveness has no meaning to you. You are so blind and hard of heart, there is no getting through to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have given you examples as well as my own testimony, yet you ignore everything I say.

No. I want you to illustrate for me using a real world example of how a believer sinning on occasion for the rest of their life is okay to God as long as they confess it.

Your words are most unkind, even if subtle, the way you speak to everyone on these forums.

Provide Post #'s of where you feel I have treated people unfairly. Please show where I said bad things against specific posters here. See, when I speak against a wrong belief, I strive not to drag that person into it personally. I speak from a third person perspective in regards to that belief.

It is not for us to say who is or who should be saved for that authority has been given to Christ.

Actually, believers do have authority to say according to God's Word if they are saved or not.

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; andwhose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:23).

For a believer can say that certain religions are false. It is not wrong to say that. Not all roads lead to Heaven. There are many false Christ's and false gospels out there. Talking about the true way to Heaven thru Jesus Christ (as he is described in the Scriptures) is not in any way being mean. Not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus does not equate with them in being on God's side.

Though we should see the fruit of the Spirit as a result of His work in them, it may not always be evident all the time. If we come across a brother at a moment in his life where he is struggling with a particular sin, should we judge him or lead him back to Christ? For me it seems that you would rather judge them and call them out as someone living in sin or a follower of Satan rather than showing them love and compassion. Do you not see the error in this? May I suggest that you pray for a less arrogant/superior self image and a more compassionate/understanding heart?

Where did I ever say to a person who is struggling with a sin that they are of the devil? I didn't. These are words that you are placing upon me because you do not understand what I have said according to God's Word. We also both cannot be right, either. So it has nothing to do with me being superior in any way. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I am just a messenger who plants seeds. It is God that gives the increase. However, God takes a dim view of sin, even if it is just one sin done on occasion. How so? Just look back at the Garden and see the destructive nature that even one sin had on all of mankind.

Correct.

I am glad I have gotten your belief correct. While I strongly disagree with your belief and do not find it Biblical in any way, I want you to know that I do not want to paint somebody into believing something that they do not actually believe. This is why I use real world examples. So when I point out to folks about how their belief is actually incorrect, I not only have the Scriptures to back me up, but I have real life to do so, as well.

Your example fails to illustrate how a believer struggles with sin, and Who they should turn to in order to overcome it.

Are you saying you believe a saint can stop sinning?

"But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:9-10)

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul is not talking about boasting in struggling with sin that is followed by confessing it. In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)​

Now, before you reply with 2 Corinthians 13:7, please see the various translations for 2 Corinthians 13:7 here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2 Corinthians 13:7

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." (Romans 5:3-5)

The tribulations being spoken of here is not a struggle with sin, but it is suffering for the cause of Christ in preaching the gospel.

"And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." (1 Peter 5:10)

In the present tense. God will restore and strengthen you in this life. God will help you to overcome sin here on Earth. I mean, we know that there are men of God who live perfectly during the End Times. This is the 144,000.

"These are they who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Revelation 14:4-5).​

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[Bible Highlighter]

And this is where we see just how WRONG you are. Christ's death has no meaning to you. Forgiveness has no meaning to you. You are so blind and hard of heart, there is no getting through to you.

First, you did not address the real world example that I have given. Second, you are the one who is attacking me personally when I have done no such thing towards you. I have spoken of your belief from a third person perspective and kept this dicussion on the Scriptures. You have not done that, my friend. Third, nowhere do I deny the work that Christ accomplished with his death, resurrection, and ascension. On the contrary, I believe that a believer is saved the instant they repent of their sins and accept Christ. This can only be by what Christ accomplished for us with his death, burial, and resurrection. But then from there, Christ lives in the believer. The believer has the choice to continue in the faith with Christ living in them or they have the choice to walk away by turning back to their old life and sin. In fact, when a believer allows Christ to do the good work thru them, they are conforming to the image of the Son (Thereby confirming the Substitionary Atonement). So no. It would be incorrect for you to say that Christ's death has no meaning for me. I could not have been forgiven of my past sin if it was not for Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason you're crazy weird here, in Hebrews 12 it says of our heavenly home this about people, they are made perfect in spirit.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

No sin, if scripture says we are made perfect, their is no sin in heaven.
Jason you need to repent, your misrepresenting God and sinning against Him in your false teaching, you're lying about Christ and God.

Christ has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

THERE IS NO SIN IN HEAVEN.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these

Nowhere did I say there would be sin in Heaven. I did not say that. Folks here are claiming they will put away sin for good when they go to Heaven. I am saying that the believer who lives out his faith in this life will do that before they die.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It is very clear that you assume that all who take issue with your interpretation are living in a constant state of sin. It drips from your posts. You couldn't be more wrong. Those who participate here are not living like that. They wouldn't be here trying to correct your faulty understanding if they were. So, the truth is, in misrepresenting us, you are bearing false witness against us, a sin, which you apparently have not yet repented of, because you keep doing it.

I never said to anyone here personally that they are living in a constant state of sin with the thinking they are saved. I said there are those who believe that way and I have pointed out that their message is not all that different than your message when it is preached. What is that message? That Christ is your righteousness and salvation is not in anything you do. Meaning, if that is all you say to a person, they could get the wrong impression and they could run off and live in sin and think they are saved. It doesn't matter if you believe that those who live in such a way are in the wrong. The point I am getting at is that the message is still the same that leads to the same end result (if not explained properly).

But no. I am not denying that there are folks here who believe that they must strive to avoid sin, but yet they also believe they will never stop sinning in this life. I also do not deny that they confess their sin, either. I have no reason to not believe them if they tell me that is what they believe. But then after they tell me their belief, I can then say it is not a correct belief according to God's Word and by way of a real world example.

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[GillDouglas]

I never said to anyone here personally that they are living in a constant state of sin with the thinking they are saved. I said there are those who believe that way and I have pointed out that their message is not all that different than your message when it is preached. What is that message? That Christ is your righteousness and salvation is not in anything you do. Meaning, if that is all you say to a person, they could get the wrong impression and they could run off and live in sin and think they are saved. It doesn't matter if you believe that those who live in such a way are in the wrong. The point I am getting at is that the message is still the same that leads to the same end result (if not explained properly).

But no. I am not denying that there are folks here who believe that they must strive to avoid sin, but yet they also believe they will never stop sinning in this life. I also do not deny that they confess their sin, either. I have no reason to not believe them if they tell me that is what they believe. But then after they tell me their belief, I can then say it is not a correct belief according to God's Word and by way of a real world example.

....

Jason, please actually read my words and understand. Your understanding of a person's salvation is too narrowly focused on what men (should) do, once saved. You choose to ignore the part where God works in a believer throughout the whole entire process. When we say that the ONLY reason we are righteous before God is because of Christ, we speak the Truth because that is what the Bible teaches us. If you didn't choose to ignore this fact about the Gospel then you would understand that we would never tell someone they have to live perfectly because we know that Christ has them and the Holy Spirit will guide them. A man who is truly God's child will not run off and live in sin, thinking they are saved because, as you say in post #2376, "Christ lives in the believer" as it is written: "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where did I ever say that we would sin in heaven or deny that our body of sin will be removed?

How about out of your own mouth? From my post #2369, in which I quoted directly your post:
"Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven."

What else could you have meant by that?

The point I was making is that you are believing that a believer will not stop sinning until they die and go to Heaven. But the Scriptures teach that we can stop sinning now in this life (1 Peter 4:1) (Galatians 5:24) (Romans 6:14) (Psalm 119:11) (Matthew 5:48) (John 5:14) (John 8:11) (Hebrews 12:14).

None of them teach anything close to that, unless you want to argue that Paul was off his rocker when he wrote Romans 7 and Eph 5.

Nowhere did I specifically mention you. I am merely attacking the belief and speaking generally of those who hold to this view. Granted, I realize that you do hold to this belief, but I am striving to not drag you or your personal life into it. This forum is not a facebook discussion; We are here to discuss God's Word. Anyways, I believe I have presented Scriptures that makes it all too clear that we can stop sinning in this life. Your not wanting to acknowledge such a truth does not change it in God's Word, my friend. But I do believe that people do not believe or do things without a reason or motivation behind it. I believe that if a person does sin or some kind of evil (Whether it be a lot of sin or a little bit of sin), they are doing so for a reason. This is why I believe many in the OSAS camp have gotten upset with me and have called me some pretty bad stuff over the years.

The ONLY reason anyone would call you "some pretty bad stuff" is because of the extremely unbiblical things you say.

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is talking from his perspective as a Jew before he became a Christian.

This is pure fantasy. Paul used the present tense throughout the chapter. But ignore if if you want.

In Romans 7:1, Paul says he speaks to those who know the Law. Meaning, he is speaking from a perspective of being under the Law from his old life.

That's just more fantasy. He is addressing the Jews in the congregation. That's all.

How so? Well, in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin. So unless Paul has a split personality, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here. For Paul speaks in at least one other place in Scripture from another perspective (See Galatians 2:18).

cherry picking verses out of the air don't help you. Just reading ch 7 shows clearly that Paul's struggle between his 2 natures is continuing. The present tense completely defeats your claims.

Also, I believe I am defending the truth of the Scriptures, too; However, we both cannot be right, though.

Of course no one would try to defend what they bon't believe. Duh. And you're right; we both cannot be right. And I've consistently and repeatedly shown how your view is the wrong one.

Now, you are saying that you are to avoid sin and to confess sin when it happens.

Now?? I've ALWAYS said that.

But one cannot really avoid sin because in your belief they will always be dragged back into sin like a magnet sticking to a piece of metal.

Did I say any of that nonsense? No. So stop putting stupid words in the mouths of others. The Bible tells us that our sin nature WILL struggle with our new nature. Do you deny that truth?

There is no real avoidance of sin in your view.

You seem to be totally clueless as to my view. So stop trying to describe or define it.

In your belief, sin has dominion over you.

This is just idiotic. When functioning under the new nature and the filling of the Holy Spirit, sin does NOT have any dominion over the believer.

But, when the believer grieves (Eph 5:18) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, then sin DOES.

But this is all part of the doctrine of spiritual growth, which you seem totally unaware of.

But Paul says, in Romans 6:14, that sin shall not have dominion over you.

And it doesn't when the believer continues to confess their sins and lives from the new nature, not the old one.

Please take note that in Romans 6, one of the points Paul is making is for us not to continue in sin while under grace.

That is true and has nothing to do with sinless perfection.

Look, you've already admitted that you're only hoping for that state and haven't arrived yet. Duh. Since your admission, do you consider yourself saved yet?

What advantage does the devil have if a believer actually attains in living a holy life? I do not see how that helps him.

None. Of course it doesn't help him. Which is why he prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Pet 5:8

On the contrary, the Scriptures say, "be ye angry and sin not..." (Ephesians 4:26), "Neither give place to the devil" (Ephesians 4:27).

Yep. These are commands. And no one keeps all the commands perfectly or consistently, even yourself. As you've already admitted.

So you admit that you believe in a "sin and still be saved" doctrine on some level?

Because the Bible teaches that sinners are saved when they believe in Christ. And we're all sinners, including yourself. As you've already admitted.

Do you believe that you can die in urepentant sin and still be saved?

Yes, because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Further, believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee from God to His own possession (believers) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

I do hope you've at least read each of these verses. They couldn't be more clear.

Do you believe all future sin is paid for?

The Bible teaches that. But, do you believe what the Bible teaches? The book of Hebrews covers that in detail in ch 8-10.

How does that not lead one to think the wrong thing about salvation whereby they will live a life of sin without impunity?

Since no legitimate Bible teacher ever teaches such trash, why would anyone even come to that nonsense conclusion?

The Bible is full of dire warnings and consequences for sin. None of which include loss of salvation.

Your entire premise is false.

I believe I have an assurance of my salvation now (Which is based upon various verses in Scripture).

Based on what, exactly? Your hope to reach sinlessness? So why did Christ die for your sins?

But I also realize that I must continue in the faith, though.

Not to continue to be saved, but to be blessed and rewarded.

Again, even one sin is enough to cause tremendous problems even spiritually. For it only took one sin to separate God from man in the Garden.

We are not to be compared to Adam and his sin. But sin does separate us from God's fellowship, which is the point of 1 Jn 1. Though I don't expect you to understand that, since you haven't understood just how much 1 Jn 1:8 totally refutes your views.

No. See, you think it is okay in God's eyes to let a believer get away with a little bit of evil as long as they confess it.

Where did I say "get away with" anything? Again, stop putting stupid words in my mouth.

Do you understand grace? I've asked this before but I don't remember you ever explaining what you think grace is or means, or how it applies to the believer.

My understanding of your view is that you have to earn God's favor by becoming sinless.

I have already explained to you what 1 John 1:8 is actually saying.

Your so-called explanation doesn't come close to the actual words at all. They refute you.

Paul is not declaring he is a sinner in the present tense. Again, as I said before, see verse 13 (1 Timothy 1:13).

Nonsense. 1 Tim 1:15 is in the present tense.

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all.

If your view were correct, Paul would have said "I WAS foremost of all". But he used the PRESENT TENSE.

Paul says BEFORE he was a blasphemer, etc. (As a part of his old life).

Uh, yeah, before he believed. But v.15 totally destroys all your views.