Lions whelp?

PhillipLaSpino

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In the following verses, I would like to have your personal thoughts, not those of some commentator, (I have read most all of them); what do you understand Jacob had in mind, not in just the words, but in his heart when he spoke to his son Judah and prophesied in Gen.49:9,

"Judah is a lion's whelp:from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched (lies down) as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

"Lions whelp for the prey" ????????????

I have several Hebrew to English Lexicons so you need not post the Hebrew for whelp.

Also can the following two verses in any way be connected to the above verse?

1. Dan.7:4, "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, aand a man's heart was given to it.

The word lion in Daniel is not the same Hebrew word used in Gen.49:9. Also the Hebrew word Daniel uses for lion is not found anywhere else in the O.T.

2. Also any connection to Rev.5:5, "The Lion of the tribe of Judah"

Your thoughts,

Phil LaSpino
 

PhillipLaSpino

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Can Dan.7:4 be speaking of the tribe of Juda when God plucked their spiritual wings when they plunged themselves into idolatry under Juda's king Mannasseh 600 years before Christ, a time when the Lord left them as prey for Babylon to conquor?

Phil LaSpino


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PhillipLaSpino

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I have done some research on the following verse from a Heb. to English Lexicon I own some 200 years old. I found a few things in this verse concerning certain Hebrew words I could not find in the newer Heb. to English dictionaries.

The verse, ""Judah is a lion's whelp:from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched (lies down) as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?"

Using Strong's numbering system,

My findings;

"Gen.49:9, “Judah = (one who confesses Jehovah) is a lion’s = (738 one who roars aloud) whelp =(1482 one who abides or remains for a short while): from the prey = (2964 is torn in pieces, devoured, destroyed), my son, thou art gone up = (5927 raised up, exhaulted): he stooped = (3766 humbled, afflicted ) down = (7812 bowed to idols), he crouched = (as a lion) = (738 one who roars aloud), and as an old lion = (3833 was was stripped, make bare); who shall rouse = (6965 strengthened)him up?”

Can this be tied in with; or not with Dan.7:4? If not why not? Dan.7:4, "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it."

Your thoughts,
Phil LaSpino


 
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Job8

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...what do you understand Jacob had in mind, not in just the words, but in his heart when he spoke to his son Judah and prophesied in Gen.49:9, "Judah is a lion's whelp:from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched (lies down) as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Phil,

1. First of all this verse should not be connected with Dan 7:4, since we are looking at two entirely different entities -- the tribe of Judah and the kingdom of Babylon (always represented by winged lions).

2. Next we need to keep Gen 49:8-12 together as one unit of prophecy concerning Judah and Christ. Isolating v. 9 does not allow for a proper understanding.

3. Next we need to separate out five segments of prophecy from v. 9:
(a) Judah is a lion's whelp (cub)
(b) from the prey, my son, thou art gone up
(c) he stooped down
(d) he couched as a lion, and as an old lion
(e) who shall rouse him up?

4. Judah is lion's whelp alludes to Balaam's prophecy regarding the nation of Israel in Num 23:24, which tells us that God would make Israel as strong as a "great lion" against its enemies in order to conquer Canaan where "he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain". This alludes to all the conquests of Israel under Moses and Joshua. Thus Judah (the son of Jacob) would be the "cub" or whelp of the "lion" Israel.

5. From the prey my son, thou art gone up again alludes to Balaam's prophecy in Num 24:5-9, where in v 8 it says about Israel "he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones". Judah was one of the primary tribes which went up against all the nations in Canaan.

6. He stooped down speaks of the idolatry of the kingdom of Judah and the resultant captivity by Babylon. Here, God said "I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand, and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath" (Jer 21:5). This corresponds to Hos 5:14, where God would be "as a young lion to the house of Judah, I, even I will tear, and go away: I will take away and none shall rescue him".

7. He couched as a lion, and as an old lion, which is repeated in Num 24:9 regarding Israel in that "he couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion, who shall stir him up?" This speaks of the downfall of Judah from the Babylonian captivity to the Roman occupation, the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and then the dispersion of the nation of Israel because of God's judgements.

8. Who shall rouse him up? or Who shall stir him up? (as above) This connects Judah to the Lion of the tribe of Judah -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- who is the only one who will eventually deliver the nation of Israel and redeem and restore it, then rule over it in the future Millenial Kingdom. David will be regent under Christ, and all the 12 tribes will be in the Land of Promise.
 
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PhillipLaSpino

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Job8, thanks for your reply. I am aware of the many teaching concerning Gen.49 and Dan.7; but after I took every word and broke both of them down, what you stated is not what I came up with. What I am attempting to do is investigate a different avenue concerning the subject.

Gen.49 concerns Jacob's prophecies of the future, they concerning his 12 sons. Jacob said to his sons, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall YOU in the last days."

Each prophesy was different from the other. Example, Dan was to provide justice, but his tribe chose treachery, and idolatry first appeared in the tribe of Dan. He lost his place and his inheritance. Rev.7, concerning the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel, you will find the tribe of Dan missing. He lost his inheritance of land because of their idolatry. He is as scripture states, "A rider that has fallen off his horse."
Take another look at the Hebrew in Gen.49, word for word:

"Gen.49:9, “Judah meaning (one who confesses Jehovah) is a lion’s - meaning, (738 one who roars aloud) whelp meaning (1482 one who abides or remains for a short while): from the prey meaning (2964 is torn in pieces, devoured, destroyed), my son, thou art gone up meaning (5927 raised up, exhaulted): he stooped meaning (3766 was humbled, afflicted ) down meaning (7812 bowed to idols), he crouched meaning (as a lion) meaning (738 one who roars aloud), and as an old lion meaning (3833 he was was stripped, make bare); who shall rouse meaning (6965 to strengthen) him (Judah) up?”

Paraphrased, "The tribe of Judah was one who confessed Jehovah; he was as a lion who roared aloud but as would a lion's whelp, he would not remain long. And as any pray would, he will be torn to pieces, devoured; my son Judah, you had been raised up and exhaulted, but now humbled and afflicted, for you have bowed to idols, yet you roar like a lion, but as an old lion, one who had been stripped naked and made bare; so I (Jacob) ask, who will strengthen you?"

I may be on the wrong track, but if I am, I will work this to its correct, or incorrect conclusion, don't have anything else to do!

P.S. Happy New Year, stay safe!

Phil
 
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Rev20

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Each prophesy was different from the other. Example, Dan was to provide justice, but his tribe chose treachery, and idolatry first appeared in the tribe of Dan.

Phil, where can I find the scripture that states that idolatry first appeared in Dan?

:)
 
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Rev20

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Try Judges 18

Where does it say the tribe of Dan worshiped idols or images? Also, where can we find so much as a whisper in the scripture that the Lord was the slightest bit bothered by Dan's activities in Judges 18? I could find no mention of that anywhere.

When the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and Moses was on Sinai, Israel made a molten calf for this purpose:

"And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him." -- Exo 32:1 KJV

This is the way God explained it to Moses:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." -- Exo 32:7-8 KJV

Therefore, that appears to be the first instance of sinful idolatry in Israel.

After that, the first documented appearance of sinful idolotry, that I am aware of, is found in 1 Kings 12, where this occurred:

"And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David: If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense." -- 1Kin 12:26-33 KJV

In regards to the tribe of Dan's absence from the tribes in the Revelation, I go with the theory of scribal error; that is, it is possible a scribe mistook the Greek word for "Dan" as the abbreviation for Mannaseh. In any case, it makes no sense that both Joseph and his son would be mentioned together amongst the tribes in the Revelation.

:)
 
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riverrat

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Where does it say the tribe of Dan worshiped idols or images? Also, where can we find so much as a whisper in the scripture that the Lord was the slightest bit bothered by Dan's activities in Judges 18? I could find no mention of that anywhere.

When the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and Moses was on Sinai, Israel made a molten calf for this purpose:
"And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him." -- Exo 32:1 KJV
This is the way God explained it to Moses:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." -- Exo 32:7-8 KJV
Therefore, that appears to be the first instance of sinful idolatry in Israel.

After that, the first documented appearance of sinful idolotry, that I am aware of, is found in 1 Kings 12, where this occurred:
"And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David: If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense." -- 1Kin 12:26-33 KJV
In regards to the tribe of Dan's absence from the tribes in the Revelation, I go with the theory of scribal error; that is, it is possible a scribe mistook the Greek word for "Dan" as the abbreviation for Mannaseh. In any case, it makes no sense that both Joseph and his son would be mentioned together amongst the tribes in the Revelation.

:)
I just googled it and thought it might answer your question.

Don't get your panties all in a wad!
 
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PhillipLaSpino

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Riverat:
Why has the tribe of Dan been left out?

The tribe of Dan was small in numbers yet productive. In 1 K. 12:25-33, we read of the tribe of Dan setting up a golden calf in the land, also putting high places of worship, throughout Israel.

1 Kings 12:30-31, "This thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. And he made an house of high places, and made priest of the lowest of the people, which were not the sons of Levi."

Scripture speaks of the tribe of Dan in the following way,

Gen.49:17, "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward."

Jeremiah 8:16, "The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that swell therein."

Amos 8:14, "They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, the manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again."

Judges 18:30, "The children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land."

The sin of Samaria was the worship of the golden calves, Deut.9:21. Hosea 4:15. To swear by means to worship, Ps.63:11. The manner of worship means, the mode of worship. Ps.139:24, Acts 9:2. Thy god O Dan, the other golden calf at Dan, 1 Kings
22:26-30.

"They shall never rise up again." The tribe of Dan has lost its inheritance for the great sins committed by them. They worshipped the beast, and never repented. Cut off forever, they "Shall never rise up again."

Why has Manasses been inserted in Dan's place? Manasses is mentioned in Rev.7 as one of the tribes that receives the mark from God in their forehead.

Yet Dan is mentioned in Ezekiel 48:2, in the 1000 year reign of Christ, in the land distribution.


Phil LaSpino



 
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Rev20

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Riverat:
Why has the tribe of Dan been left out?

The tribe of Dan was small in numbers yet productive. In 1 K. 12:25-33, we read of the tribe of Dan setting up a golden calf in the land, also putting high places of worship, throughout Israel.

1 Kings 12:30-31, "This thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. And he made an house of high places, and made priest of the lowest of the people, which were not the sons of Levi."

Dan didn't set up that golden calf. The king, Jeroboam, did; and not only in Dan, but also in Bethel. The king also placed the priests of the golden calf in Bethel, not in Dan:

"And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made." -- 1Kin 12:32 KJV

So, why was Dan singled out, that is, if he was really singled out as claimed?
.

Scripture speaks of the tribe of Dan in the following way,

Gen.49:17, "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward."

This was also part of the blessing:

"Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord." -- Gen 49:17-18 KJV

There was also this:

"And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan." -- Deu 33:22 KJV

Don't you think it odd that Dan would receive one of the same blessings as Judah:

"Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?" -- Gen 49:9 KJV

Note that Dan was also mentioned as having something to do with salvation, but never as a villain.
.

Jeremiah 8:16, "The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that swell therein."

It was a fact that the land of Dan was the northern-most land of Israel, and therefore was "first in line" to be slaughtered by invading armies, such as the Assyrians or Chaldeans. But that has nothing to do with idolatry.
.

Amos 8:14, "They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, the manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again."

Is that referring to the tribe of Dan; or is it referring to those who follow idols, from any tribe? The sin of Samaria (idolatry) was initiated by the king, not by Dan.
.

Judges 18:30, "The children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land."

If the children of Manasseh were the priests of the tribe of Dan, during these supposed days of idolatry, why was Manasseh not singled out, along with Dan?
.

The sin of Samaria was the worship of the golden calves, Deut.9:21. Hosea 4:15. To swear by means to worship, Ps.63:11. The manner of worship means, the mode of worship. Ps.139:24, Acts 9:2. Thy god O Dan, the other golden calf at Dan, 1 Kings 22:26-30. "They shall never rise up again."

Again, Dan did not set up those idols, the king did. And his priests were placed in Bethel, not in Dan. Therefore, it is called the "sin of Samaria," not the "sin of Dan."
.

The tribe of Dan has lost its inheritance for the great sins committed by them. They worshipped the beast, and never repented. Cut off forever, they "Shall never rise up again."

There is absolutely no proof of that claim, that I have seen so far.
.

Why has Manasses been inserted in Dan's place? Manasses is mentioned in Rev.7 as one of the tribes that receives the mark from God in their forehead.
Yet Dan is mentioned in Ezekiel 48:2, in the 1000 year reign of Christ, in the land distribution.

And why would Manasseh replace Dan, since the priests of Dan were from the tribe of Manasseh? Were they not at least complicit, if there was any idolatry in the tribe of Dan before King Jeroboam?

There is this possible explanation from the Pulpit Commentary (and Ewald):

"Ewald believes that St. John wrote ΔΑΝ, and that MAN., the abbreviated form of "Manasses," was substituted by error; and he appeals to manuscripts 9, 13, which, however, have "Dan" in place of "Gad." Moreover, Irenaeus, Origen, Arethas, have "Manasseh," and state plainly that Dan was omitted.

It is certainly curious in connection with this conjecture that, if it were true, that is to say, if "Dan" should be read in place of "Manasseh," we should have a more intelligible order of arrangement. In that case, speaking generally, the elder sons would come first, the younger last; all the pairs of brothers are kept together (only that, in the case of the six brothers, there is a division into two lots); Judah naturally is placed first before Reuben, owing to the prominent place held by him in the Apocalypse in connection with our Lord.

The order would then be -

sons of Leah. Juda, Reuben Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon
sons of Zilpah. Gad, Aser
sons of Bilhah. Nepthalim, [Dan,]
sons of Rachel. Joseph, Benjamin<BR>

[H.D.M. Spence, "The Pulpit Commentary Vol 41 - Revelation." Funk & Wagnalls Company, Rev 7:5, p.208]

If Manasseh belonged, it was out of order.

One other point: neither James, nor Paul, who both mentioned the twelve tribes in the present tense, hinted that one of the original tribes was missing:

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." -- Jas 1:1

"And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews." -- Acts 26:6-7

:)
 
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Rev20

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Rev.20, If you understand Dan to be this wonderful, faithful and blessed tribe that walked in the way of the LORD, that's fine, I have no problem with that.
Phil

Did I say that?

Yes, that is what I said, but not collectively. That is, each tribe was blessed, but as individuals. It was explained this way in Exodus:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

Every child of Israel who was faithful in those two things was blessed, and all the tribes were mentioned as being blessed in the New Testament, by both Paul and James. But Jesus was clear that he judged each man according to his own works, not the works of others.

I realize you were being flippant, but you almost got it right.

No matter. If you understand the entire tribe of Dan to have been completely cut-off by the Lord, in accord with the follies of Hippolytus and other wildly imaginative creatures, then I have no problem with that.

:)
 
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